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Topic Review (Newest First)

  • 03-29-2008, 09:37 PM
    Warp Speed
    My preference is the dual carb/tunnel ram set up.

    Far superior fuel distribution, especialy part throttle/cruising. May show a slight gain in fuel consumption depending on the current tune quality vs. the new set-up but gains every where else.
    I think a properly tuned the tunnel ram could just as efficient if not more but that's just MHO.

    I like the Dart for the narrow powerband that most jets require, especialy with 500+ inches but.........
  • 03-29-2008, 07:07 PM
    Brendellajet
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
    Sorry...I didn't really state that clearly...of course you want more usable power, just wondering if you wanted more where you are, or were willing/wanting to raise the powerband and change other things accordingly. The NOS is a great solution for short bursts of power, just kind of limited on capacity. Dosen't take long to burn up a bottle.
    Id like to get more out of it(turn more R's), but I think the NOS will accomplish that. Its in a 21 foot boat and there is usually family in there so the NOS wont get used that often. But when a pesky little boat wants to try to bring it, Ill be ready.
  • 03-29-2008, 03:53 PM
    scott foxwell
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendellajet View Post
    Obviously I want more usable power. I think Im just going to run it the way it is since I know there is a limited market for my existing intake. When I swap over to a dominator suction housing then Ill just throw a little NOS at it.
    Sorry...I didn't really state that clearly...of course you want more usable power, just wondering if you wanted more where you are, or were willing/wanting to raise the powerband and change other things accordingly. The NOS is a great solution for short bursts of power, just kind of limited on capacity. Dosen't take long to burn up a bottle.
  • 03-29-2008, 03:12 PM
    Brendellajet
    Obviously I want more usable power. I think Im just going to run it the way it is since I know there is a limited market for my existing intake. When I swap over to a dominator suction housing then Ill just throw a little NOS at it.
  • 03-29-2008, 11:46 AM
    scott foxwell
    Quote Originally Posted by squirt View Post
    Not 60 or 80 but sure looks like more power here.

    THis is from Super Chevy


    Big Block Tunnel Ram Intake - Two A "T"


    Speaking of applications, to properly demonstrate the performance merits of the tunnel ram, we needed a cool big-block Chevy test motor. Rather than order a GM crate mill or screw together a rebuilt 454, we took Westech's Steve Brule up on an offer to use the race motor from his record-setting jet boat. The 476 was a serious piece, featuring 13.6:1 compression, CNC-ported heads from AFR and a serious sold roller camshaft. The 476 was basically a .100-over 454 that featured a Scat 4340 forged crank and matching rods combined with a set of JE pistons.

    Breathing came from a set of 335cc (intake port volume) AFR aluminum heads. According to the flow bench, the heads flowed 410 cfm at .800 lift (not an unrealistic lift value given the wild cam timing). Comp supplied the hot roller cam (and the remainder of the valvetrain) that featured a .780/.744 lift split and a healthy 282/288 duration split (measured at .050). Additional components used in the build up included a Moroso oiling system (including marine pan and vacuum pump), a complete MSD ignition system (including crank trigger) and a set of2.25-inch (primary size) Hooker headers.

    As mentioned previously, an intake manifold should be chosen for a particular engine combination as well as the intended application. On this particular engine, the effective operating range was rather small, given the fact that the jet boat work much like a high stall converter. Once you hit the throttle to start the quarter-mile pass, the engines speed instantly climbs (up to around 6800 rpm) and the boat accelerates as the flow through the jet pump catches up with the engine speed. This means that the change in engine speed during the run is very minimal (500-800 rpm), and that every attempt should be made to maximize the power production in that rev range.

    Having run the motor successfully with a combination of an Edelbrock Super Victor intake (with Dominator car flange) and a Barry Grant 1195 King Demon RS carb, Brule was looking to further improve the power output of his race motor. Given that it made peak power near 7400 rpm and the relatively narrow operating range, Steve decided the engine might be a good candidate for a tunnel ram. As he found out, not only was the tunnel ram impressive at elevated engine speeds, but it shined down low as well.

    The first order of business was to establish a baseline with the Super Victor intake and 1195 Barry Grant King Demon carb. Equipped with the single four-barrel, the 476 produced 870 hp and 644 lbs-ft of torque. The power output was impressive considering the relatively small displacement. After successful back up runs produced the same power numbers, we replaced the Super Victor with the Dart tunnel ram and dual 1095 King Demon carbs. The longer runners in the Dart tunnel ram combined with the increased plenum volume and additional breathing offered by the pair of BG carbs to produce some impressive power gains.

    Equipped with the Dart tunnel ram and dual King Demons, the 476 pumped out an even 900 horsepower and 670 lbs-ft of torque. Not only did the tunnel ram improve the peak power numbers, but the impressive induction system elevated to power and torque curves from 6000 rpm to 7400 rpm. Basically, the tunnel ram offered more power throughout the tested rev range. At these elevated specific output levels, it is difficult enough to even improve the power output, let alone show consistent gains throughout the rev range. The Dart tunnel ram was definitely the hot set up on this marine motor.

    While this particular test was run on a dedicated race motor, we also ran another tunnel ram test on a much milder combination. The test mule was a low-compression 496-inch (.060-over and 4.25 stroker crank) big-block equipped with AFR 315 heads, a mild hydraulic roller cam (255/262 duration) and a set of Hooker Chevelle street headers. It was tested with a single-plane Holley 300-5 intake and a Weiand Hi-Ram (street/strip tunnel ram). The Holley intake was run with a 950 HP carb, while the Hi-Ram was run with a pair of tunnel-ram specific 750 cfm carbs.

    Equipped with the single-plane Holley intake, the 496 produced 652 hp at 6300 rpm and 578 lbs-ft at 4800 rpm. After swapping on the Weiand Hi-Ram, the peak power numbers jumped to 687 hp and 618 lbs. ft. of torque. As with the 476 race motor, the tunnel ram improved the power output of the 496 stroker throughout the rev range (from 3000 rpm to 6500 rpm), further illustrating the impressive low-speed and mid-range power offered by the long-runner design.

    Of course all the extra power comes with the cost of cutting a hole in your hood, but hood scoops are cool too, especially when they cover a trick (and effective) dual-carb tunnel ram.

    I wonder what the Edelbrock Victor TR would have produced here. The Dart is a big TR, and my guess is that the numbers may have been even better, especially the lower tq numbers, with the Edelbrock. I had a Dart TR for my 467, but went with the Edelbbrock...would have been an interesting comparison.
  • 03-29-2008, 11:38 AM
    scott foxwell
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendellajet View Post
    The hundred hp deal difference is with headers. Albeit more cam and more air/fuel with the TR so not really an apples to apples comparo.

    I did not dyno with Imco's however, Im turning similar rpm as those running headers with a similar combo. MPD already confirmed for me that it takes 775 hp to turn a Heritage A impeller 5800 rpm. Per my dyno sheat thats where Im at. Note from everything I can find a Heritage A is somewhere between a berk A & AA. So-no power loss suspected with the IMCO's.

    Ill have to look at my dyno sheat and see if westech recorded vacuum under the carb.

    After thinking about this, I think Id go through a lot more fuel feeding this motor with 2 carbs(and my heavy right foot). I wonder how a 1050 dominator would work for me? Probably be a little more friendly than the duals?

    As far as the intake, Definitely not their $700 deal, if it is I got ripped. I guess I could call them and talk to them about it.
    My question is where do you want to pick up the power? Do you want more peak power where you're really not running the engine anyway, or do you want to increase usablbe power where you're runing? A TR with two big carbs may give you more power, but it may hurt you where you're happy right now. To keep the power in a usable range for what you're doing, you need to focus on improvemenet in that rpm range. Also, the cam you've got now was probably designed for your current combination. Change that, and you may not have the optimum cam profile for the upgrade. You may want to step up to the Dart or Super Victor with a 1050, and not have to change much else. Changing to a TR may warrant both a cam and impeller change.
    Bottom line is, it takes more fuel/air to make more power.
    Just some things to consider.
  • 03-29-2008, 10:13 AM
    Sleeper CP
    Here is some dyno info I dug up. You can more than likely bet that the twin carbs would use more fuel than a well set up single Dominator.

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php...ight=local+man

    It's some good reading.

    Sleeper CP
    Big Inch Ford Lover
  • 03-29-2008, 04:24 AM
    cfm
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendellajet View Post
    As far as the intake, Definitely not their $700 deal, if it is I got ripped. I guess I could call them and talk to them about it.
    I did not imply that. To clarify my bad typing (sorry) I was saying I could guess power with their $700 deal, not with the $2000 deal. $2000 means they did a ton of work including welding. So, no way for me to guess pwr since for that $$$ it is a 'custom' and not a 'typical.'

    As far as why questioning why they started with a Vic JR comes from my own curiosity and experience with Wilson and some others. If you are going to have an intake seriously modified they will typically sit down and figure out what end result they want to come up with, then they will pick the stock intake manifold that will require the less work and less $$$ to get to where they want. Removing material costs a whole lot less than adding it. So, this Vic Jr question is for my own data bank. Remember, I'm here to learn (good, bad, ugly) from what others are doing - just like most others 'hitting the net' - and to help of course where I can.

    Get a vacuum gauge sourced under the throttle blades and take a reading at WFO and top rpm. Note the reading.

    Remove flame arrestor for one run and do same. WFO and top rpm. Note the reading. This is to see if arrestor is hurting you also. Don't assume the arrestor is fine 'so why test it.' Easy enough to do.

    Interesting about the exhaust. Thanks.
  • 03-28-2008, 06:50 PM
    Brendellajet
    The hundred hp deal difference is with headers. Albeit more cam and more air/fuel with the TR so not really an apples to apples comparo.

    I did not dyno with Imco's however, Im turning similar rpm as those running headers with a similar combo. MPD already confirmed for me that it takes 775 hp to turn a Heritage A impeller 5800 rpm. Per my dyno sheat thats where Im at. Note from everything I can find a Heritage A is somewhere between a berk A & AA. So-no power loss suspected with the IMCO's.

    Ill have to look at my dyno sheat and see if westech recorded vacuum under the carb.

    After thinking about this, I think Id go through a lot more fuel feeding this motor with 2 carbs(and my heavy right foot). I wonder how a 1050 dominator would work for me? Probably be a little more friendly than the duals?

    As far as the intake, Definitely not their $700 deal, if it is I got ripped. I guess I could call them and talk to them about it.
  • 03-28-2008, 09:10 AM
    Sleeper CP
    Dan Crower built a 502 for a friend of his; 502 short block with a good set of head's and a 850 carb. The next year he put a Tunnel Ram on it with two 850's and picked up 50 HP at 6,200 rpms'. The engine had a Hyd. roller cam and 10:1 comp.

    Dan was really impressed with the T/R it picked up power everywhere in the rpm range. I think it picked up 45 lbs. ft of trq. at it's peak along with the 50 HP.

    Sleeper CP
  • 03-28-2008, 08:40 AM
    cfm
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendellajet View Post
    Nothing has been done to the 950. Pretty much box stock. Exhaust is a set of Imco powerflows.

    I knew I was leaving power on the table when the combo was decided on. Motor was built on paper a few years ago and I know there are some guys with similar builds making close to a hundred more hp with different induction.
    100hp more on dyno or by the pump hp chart thing ? Did you dyno with the Imco's by any chance - in same running configuration as would be in the boat?

    Reason why I ask, if in the boat and by pump hp chart, what are they using for exhaust system ?
  • 03-28-2008, 08:08 AM
    cfm
    You guys need to remember I based my guess off of:

    800hp 548 with a Holley 950HP. The 950HP is a sizeable restriction to a 800hp 548!

    Not a more proper big Dom. If we guessed from here, then the #'s guessed would be lower.


    I assumed 'Wilson Victor Jr was thire $700 mild work deal. Would be power off from a better sized intake. But...the $2k came out later in thread, so ???????


    ================================================== =======

    Brendellajet - smart thing to do before making any move is to check the vac reading just under the carburetor. This will tell you how much the carb is restricting you.

    Or maybe this is posted on your dyno sheet ? Many dyno places (not all of course) will check this during runs. Either way, I'd still do it in the boat just to make sure.

    As far as the intake, with $2k of work from Wilson I can't make any guesses on that. Just curiosity why started with a JR... that's all.
  • 03-27-2008, 10:18 PM
    squirt
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Brule' View Post
    It's interesting, do you have some Data to go along with your (estimation) of power,or
    torque. and at what RPM. I personally have never seen 60 or 80 or anything close
    with tunnel ram vs. a single 1x4,,, runner length as well as available CFM are both to be considered

    Not 60 or 80 but sure looks like more power here.

    THis is from Super Chevy


    Big Block Tunnel Ram Intake - Two A "T"


    Speaking of applications, to properly demonstrate the performance merits of the tunnel ram, we needed a cool big-block Chevy test motor. Rather than order a GM crate mill or screw together a rebuilt 454, we took Westech's Steve Brule up on an offer to use the race motor from his record-setting jet boat. The 476 was a serious piece, featuring 13.6:1 compression, CNC-ported heads from AFR and a serious sold roller camshaft. The 476 was basically a .100-over 454 that featured a Scat 4340 forged crank and matching rods combined with a set of JE pistons.

    Breathing came from a set of 335cc (intake port volume) AFR aluminum heads. According to the flow bench, the heads flowed 410 cfm at .800 lift (not an unrealistic lift value given the wild cam timing). Comp supplied the hot roller cam (and the remainder of the valvetrain) that featured a .780/.744 lift split and a healthy 282/288 duration split (measured at .050). Additional components used in the build up included a Moroso oiling system (including marine pan and vacuum pump), a complete MSD ignition system (including crank trigger) and a set of2.25-inch (primary size) Hooker headers.

    As mentioned previously, an intake manifold should be chosen for a particular engine combination as well as the intended application. On this particular engine, the effective operating range was rather small, given the fact that the jet boat work much like a high stall converter. Once you hit the throttle to start the quarter-mile pass, the engines speed instantly climbs (up to around 6800 rpm) and the boat accelerates as the flow through the jet pump catches up with the engine speed. This means that the change in engine speed during the run is very minimal (500-800 rpm), and that every attempt should be made to maximize the power production in that rev range.

    Having run the motor successfully with a combination of an Edelbrock Super Victor intake (with Dominator car flange) and a Barry Grant 1195 King Demon RS carb, Brule was looking to further improve the power output of his race motor. Given that it made peak power near 7400 rpm and the relatively narrow operating range, Steve decided the engine might be a good candidate for a tunnel ram. As he found out, not only was the tunnel ram impressive at elevated engine speeds, but it shined down low as well.

    The first order of business was to establish a baseline with the Super Victor intake and 1195 Barry Grant King Demon carb. Equipped with the single four-barrel, the 476 produced 870 hp and 644 lbs-ft of torque. The power output was impressive considering the relatively small displacement. After successful back up runs produced the same power numbers, we replaced the Super Victor with the Dart tunnel ram and dual 1095 King Demon carbs. The longer runners in the Dart tunnel ram combined with the increased plenum volume and additional breathing offered by the pair of BG carbs to produce some impressive power gains.

    Equipped with the Dart tunnel ram and dual King Demons, the 476 pumped out an even 900 horsepower and 670 lbs-ft of torque. Not only did the tunnel ram improve the peak power numbers, but the impressive induction system elevated to power and torque curves from 6000 rpm to 7400 rpm. Basically, the tunnel ram offered more power throughout the tested rev range. At these elevated specific output levels, it is difficult enough to even improve the power output, let alone show consistent gains throughout the rev range. The Dart tunnel ram was definitely the hot set up on this marine motor.

    While this particular test was run on a dedicated race motor, we also ran another tunnel ram test on a much milder combination. The test mule was a low-compression 496-inch (.060-over and 4.25 stroker crank) big-block equipped with AFR 315 heads, a mild hydraulic roller cam (255/262 duration) and a set of Hooker Chevelle street headers. It was tested with a single-plane Holley 300-5 intake and a Weiand Hi-Ram (street/strip tunnel ram). The Holley intake was run with a 950 HP carb, while the Hi-Ram was run with a pair of tunnel-ram specific 750 cfm carbs.

    Equipped with the single-plane Holley intake, the 496 produced 652 hp at 6300 rpm and 578 lbs-ft at 4800 rpm. After swapping on the Weiand Hi-Ram, the peak power numbers jumped to 687 hp and 618 lbs. ft. of torque. As with the 476 race motor, the tunnel ram improved the power output of the 496 stroker throughout the rev range (from 3000 rpm to 6500 rpm), further illustrating the impressive low-speed and mid-range power offered by the long-runner design.

    Of course all the extra power comes with the cost of cutting a hole in your hood, but hood scoops are cool too, especially when they cover a trick (and effective) dual-carb tunnel ram.

  • 03-27-2008, 09:58 PM
    Sleeper CP
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendellajet View Post
    Curious to get some input on what you all think a set of dual carbs would do to my fuel spending. Id make more power so I expect to use more gas. Question is how much more gas & power? Motor is a 548 with a HP950, wilson ported Victor jr. Currently making 800 @ 6200 rpm in a jetboat.
    You may only use more gas when you have your foot stuck in it. (not sure) it has alot to do with the way the carb's are set up linkage(1:1 or progressive or soft-progressive) and even a power valve.

    I have posted in the past about my bad experience with pulling out the PV and up jetting the damn thing used a shit load more gas just at cruising speed. When I got to the sand bar up river I checked the gas and change back over to the PV.

    Years ago I thru a rod in our built 460 (472) with a roller cam. A month later put a stocker in it with a hyd. cam same A impeller. The little engine sucked up so much more gas trying to turn the A impeller it was amazing.

    So sometimes more power won't cost you more gas it's a matter or set up. I would be more of a fan of you using a Dart or Brodix Dominator single plane and running a 1050 or 1150 dominator.

    I would think a TR with dual's could make 40-60 more hp. I'm interested in the type of #'s Steve has seen at Westec, but I would think I'm in the ball park.

    As far as the fuel use with the T/R goes, when set up correctly with 1:1 linkage as running 8 one barrle carbs I would think you would use quite a bit more fuel than a Dominator with a front Power Valve. The C&S carb that is on my boat now doesn't have a PV, it does have 2 hrs. or wet flow testing that I was told made it a very well balanced card that won't use any more fuel than my 1050 with the PV. We'll see here in a couple of months.


    Good luck on the project.

    Sleeper CP
    Big Inch Ford Lover
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