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I've been looking at this constantly the last week or so. I am really good with the piece together system, however i am a little leary of the ECU after buying all the parts separately. If I did piece together a system what is a good ecu to have? I would like to do spark control with the distributor as well.
1. Piece your own system together, you will get better parts for the same amount of money
2. Don't buy into media hype about features ect.. talk to people actually using the ECUs and that have experience with more than one ECU. Find out what works and does not.
3. Closed loop tuning is a must
4. All the EFI systems come down to trigger pattern of ignition, crank trigger, distributor, Coil on Plug ect.. what do you want to use and what type of signal does it generate.
I can tell you from personal experience that not all EFI systems are created equal when it comes to basic stuff like making the engine run. Then add to that stuff like datalogging and other features if you want them.
Originally Posted by TJS That is not going to happen with water injected headers. Dry yes, but wet no.
T.J. I guess since I run mine dry that's why I said that.
Originally Posted by cordog009 Alot of the newer EFI setups are self-tuning with a wideband o2 sensor. Pretty much plug and play. I've thought about going EFI one day, but to get a good system you're gonna be out some cash. I think Holley has a new Dominator setup coming out that flow 1000 and 2000 cfm. That is not going to happen with water injected headers. Dry yes, but wet no.
Alot of the newer EFI setups are self-tuning with a wideband o2 sensor. Pretty much plug and play. I've thought about going EFI one day, but to get a good system you're gonna be out some cash. I think Holley has a new Dominator setup coming out that flow 1000 and 2000 cfm.
Don't get me wrong I wouldn't do this on my boat. I also still might switch to stainless for fuel rail, but I want to see just how much can be accomplished by the average persons tools and abilities. I already have a pressure tester setup to use. I'll be testing to 100psi which is fuel pump internal regulated pressure just in case external adjustable reg fails. But normal fuel pressure will be about 40psi.
In most cases a premade rail that only requires injector holes drilled (such as Ross you suggested) is the best option. With the jetta the injectors seat way down between each intake runner, so the 4 fingers are part of the rail and injectors seat in the ends of each finger.
Wow. That’s really thinking outside the box. Are those your fuel rails and injector holders? I really hope you have pressure tested that before you even attempt to run fuel through them. MIG welding can leave porous voids sometimes and this is bad when fuel is entered into the picture. Make a pressure test JIG and pump it up to at least 10psi and spray soapy water on all the joints. My pressure test jig has a gauge on it with a truck tire valve screwed to it. This way I can see if there is leak-down as well.
Here is a pic of my pressure JIG.
the coolest thing about aftermarket efi, is that all the companies are realizing they have to have the best and latest features, and also be completely universal. this means that you can virtually take pieces and parts from anything you could imagine and make it work in one unit.
i have 91 jetta that is my commuter car. it has a bosch k-jetronic electro/mechanical fuel injection system, and i hate it. i'd been having stalling issues and the fuel mileage was just OK. so i decided to switch to efi, and electronic ignition. My goal was to do it as cheap as possible, with as little custom work as possible (something that anyone slighly handy could do). So this is what i have done. I got a MegaSquirt 1 v2.2 (base bottom MS unit) converted it to use edis (fords waste spark ignition they used all throughout the 90's). I paid $150 for the MS unit from a guy that didn't use it. paid $40 for the edis setup, which included, reluctor wheel, sensor, module, coil pack, wiring and connectors, and plug wires. I got 4 fuel injectors off a 4.2L supercharged v8 jag engine (free). ordered up some .524 inside diameter tubing from McMaster Carr for $30, started welding up and making my own fuel rail. slightly modified the powersteering pulley to weld the reluctor wheel on. have to make a VR sensor bracket still. Used a Jaguar tps off a used throttle body i had lying around, and welded on an arm at the end of the throttle shaft on the throttle body from the jetta. gonna mount and use the jag tps on the end. The car already has high pressure pump and return line, so thats easy, and i have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator that came on my holley setup that i am going to use. I'll program the ecm to accept the factory vw engine temp sensor, and all i have to do is mount an iat sensor in the induction boot. I'll have maybe $400 when all is done.
the point is, that you can use parts and pieces from anything. use your imagination. if you were to have the engine with any type of induction manifold and look possible, what would it be? cause you can do it. (i'm currently working an idea for an old school tri carb looking efi setup to hopefully put in one of my dads old sanger flatbottoms)
the creativity is the part i love the most, you can go to the junk yard and get every sensor you will need and a wiring harness to modify...probably cost you less than $50 bucks. that just gives you that much more to spend on making it exactly like you want. toss out some ideas, what do you want it to look like? what do you want it do? is it going under a hatch or can you see it? options are limitless.
heres some pics of my jetta crap.
the holley comander system would be a great choice for your application IMO
you could try it and always upgrade to a new controller and harness if you decide you dont like it. Basically just what I've done
This is getting more exciting as I think about it. I havent done a good learning project in a while.
I have the hardin manifolds so I can easily put a spacer with threads for an o2 sensor in there.
I do have a bridgeport mill. So I can machine some of my own stuff if I need to, however, I dont have a tig.
I have the opportunity to buy a Holley commander system. It is complete, however I read up on the software for this system and its a little behind the others mentioned here like Fast or Big stuff.
So I have a bunch of options and some time AND $$. Best of all worlds I guess. I have these options:
-Buy an all new system.
-Use an existing system and retro-fit it
-Piece together the whole thing.
The last two are what I am considering the most. I am looking for something that I can tune reliably and without issues, especially on the water. I do want timing control as well. If I'm going to do it might as well do it all.
I know the piece together system will be just as effective. Would the Holley commander kit work good with another controller or the upgrade? I'm up for anything still.
Got the PM Outlaw, thanks a bunch for the info.
I pieced together a system too…um well actually made the pieces. See site in my signature. You may want to look at a tunnel ram to convert to EFI. Brian Thompson of hotrodsolutions.com has done some cool conversions. I am no way affiliated with him, but his prices are good as his work. I had a tunnel ram done from him a while ago, never used it and sold it because I went with a blower and made an injector adapter plate with a bugcatcher. However, I studied how he did it and it is not rocket science.
Fuel rails are cheap from Ross machine (get the -10AN ones) as are the injector bungs cheap now too. You would need the injector pocket tool from them to do it right though. Then you would need to get the bungs TIG welded in the manifold. It is really not that hard to do if you take your time, plan and layout everything. The most important thing to remember is matching the injector spacing on the intake to the holes in your fuel rails. You can probably convert to EFI for the cost of a tunnel ram and two new Holley’s. IMHO.
This is what you would need to get you started if making the conversion yourself:
Don’t know what tools you have at your disposal. A Bpt. Mill and a TIG machine would be helpful.
-Manifold (possible tunnel, you only need the lower part, sell the top part after you make the plate).
-Throttle body adapter plate if using the tunnel. (Fabricate yourself and transfer punch holes using the top tunnel adapter as a template). The 2 TB’s would mount vertically where the Holley’s would. Use 3/8” alum for the adapter plate.
-Throttle bodies (2). Get 5.0 mustang bolt pattern. Real cheap too on ebay.
-Ross machine fuel rails.
-Ross machine injector bungs.
-Fabricate throttle linkage to tie the TB’s together. Many parts for this on Kinsler site.
-8 Injectors. (Five-O motorsport). They will have what you need.
-Ross machine injector pocket tool.
Lines fittings ect.
PM me if you have questions.
This should answer the water and condensation concern, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_scyqIsyQc
Originally Posted by ap67et10 Oem efi stuff has a much different goal than a pleasure boat. even in oem automotive applications the o2 sensor typically only has a 25% correction authorization, and its primarily there for smog requirement. a good running engine in a oem setup, will only run about +/- 2% correction at any given time, and the only reason its correcting at all is to give best possible emissions output. Also in a failure situation, (whether a sensor goes bad, or wiring or something) it can help correct for possible rich or lean condition, also to minimizing poor emissions. Even in oem though, if you go full throttle, the o2 does nothing. it will not even read...the signal is completely ignored.
if you have your VE (volumetric efficiency) table setup up properly, then everything can be calculated to compensate (air temp, coolant temp, elevation, rpm, load, etc) without the input of an o2 reading, but its all reliant on correct VE table setup (which is what you will be setting, when using the o2). basically your VE table is the foundation to everything, once set really well, everything else is added on to it. so the various temp readings, tps, etc. all then get calculated in using your VE table numbers to arrive at the correct fueling and ignition (if you run ignition control) for that specific moment. So the ecm chooses what VE number to calculate with based on the rpm and MAP (vacuum/load). So at 2000rpm, with 100% load it will use the VE number you typed in to calculate injector pulse "on time" and deliver the correct fuel for that situation, it will also factor in any compensation to that fuel delivery based on temp changes, tps changes, iac changes...any and all inputs it sees it will compensate for based on how much compensation you tell it to have. does that make sense? All those other sensors though, are just a small correction factor for that moment using the VE number you entered in for the given rpm and load.
hope that makes sense...
AP Thanks for the detailed reply...and yes it makes perfect and actually quite understandable sense.
But I gotta ask >>> reliability on the water >>> I can usually fix a carb with a toothpick and a bugger.
How happy will a EFI system be around water, vibration, extended high RPM, condensation etc. Is there any need to carry a lot of extra parts, are they temperamental systems?