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Topic Review (Newest First)

  • 10-13-2010, 07:32 AM
    gn7
    Low compression engines don't run all that well in AV eh. Well DUH!!!. No low compression engine runs all that well on higher octane fuel. There is a reason why they make low octane fuel, and it isn't because people are cheap. Mercury's 496 motors and some others actually but out less power on 91 than 87, and Merc warns you not to run 91.

    Oem are cooled by the surrounding fuel. But being in the tank doesn't help the internals one bit. The problem with the Holleys and others isn't just heat, the internal are junk.



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  • 10-13-2010, 05:45 AM
    SoldHondaBoughtHondo
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post

    In a gas fuel pump, no excuse. OEM pumps last thousands of miles with todays nasty ass pump gas. Holleys and some other cheap ass pumps will have proplems. Pumps like the Weldon, Aeromotives and others, laugh at the stuff. Will adding Marvel Mystery oil help. Probably. It also lowers the octane of the fuel you just bought. I'd rather have a decent pump.
    Will Marvel oil make you fuel lines last longer. If you say it does.
    Half the reason OEM pumps last longer is they are in tank and gas keeps them cool. Worst thing you can do to an in tank pump is be one of those people who puts $10 in and runs it till it's almost empty all the time. I have changed out a lot of them and it's easy to tell who runs low all the time, the wires/connectors on the pump are brown and cooked looking.

    And while i don't have much recent experience with after mart electric pumps, the 125 gph black unit i had was a self destruct pos. The inlet screen doesn't have enough surface area...a couple stray pieces of teflon tape about plug it up and restriction on the suck side of an electric just adds more heat to a pump that already runs hot, and the ones that come with general motors marine deals are even worse...

    As for MM oil...is that like snake oil

    And i have always mixed av 50/50 with pump...things just seem to run better and low comp. motors seem to run worse (less hp) on straight av.

    Something no one has brought up yet...take a couple clean qt. jars..fill one with pump and one with av...park them someplace where they can evaporate safely...when the gas is all gone, which one will leave a residue?

    How can you tell straight av from mix or straight pump? av has no taste.

    And can't say as i have ever had any issues with av eating rubber...if there really was a problem things would start seeping and leaking from sitting in storage.
    i.e. plastic motorcycle/atv tanks...fuel valve seals, plastic/ rubber and neoprene fuel hoses.......but ya got to avoid fuel line from manny moe and
    jack and checkerzone too...most of their hose is good for short term repair only....as opposed to oem hoses...most will out live the car they came on.
  • 10-13-2010, 02:54 AM
    Rexone
    There are some informative posts on the old hotboat archives. Here is a list of threads to search through.
  • 10-10-2010, 10:59 AM
    gn7
    If the hose is that slick, its most likely teflon. And that is by far the best theing to use. There are other hose materials out there, but todays fuels will fail them in time. Teflon is the only thing that will stand up to the stuff. If I was running an alky deal, every fuel line in the boat would be teflon. Its bank, but it lasts.



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  • 10-09-2010, 09:06 AM
    72Hondo
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    You are way to "new school." The stainless stuff was like WWII or post war surplus. I am certain they have moved on from that stuff. Weight alone would be a huge reason. And most of the stuff that we got was never used for fuel, it was used for hydraulics. I use to get the stuff from an
    aircraft/military/aerospace surplus place called Washington Hardware. The lines were easy to get. The fittings were impossible. Not the hose ends, those were already crimped on. But the fitting adaptors were like non existend then. The only place around was Earl's, which is how they gout started in the braided line thing. Even if you got the line cheap, the fittings were the deal killer. You were cool if you had a braided line going from just your full pump to the carb. And because the ends were already on, it was usually longer than it needed to be.

    I can believe there is much better stuff available to the AC guys. Can you tell if the inside layer is teflon. It seems to be the direction the "performance" industry is going for fuel lines to solve the problems.

    You're telling me about Hose ends. I got my boat from an A&P and he used all kinds of weird fittings that I could not find anywhere!

    As far as that orange hose, nothing sticks to that crap. 409 and anything will come off that hose.

    I totally agree with the "Quality Control" from pump to Avgas. I have watched the trucks offload and spoke to the guys at the "Fuel Farm." The fuel is inspected heavily before it even leaves the truck. Once it is in the tanks it is inspected every morning before it is given out. Even after it’s in other company’s truck they inspect it every day also. You will not get that kind of quality from the pump. The fuel farm guy was saying if the truck's fuel is even suspected to be “Bad” the whole batch is refused.
  • 10-08-2010, 09:39 PM
    gn7
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed of Heat View Post
    The orange colored hose is actually a fire sleeve that is pulled over the AN hose to better protect in case of fire.-In reference to the issue of hoses deteriorating, I suspect that it most likely has a relationship to the amount of toluene in the fuel. As an owner operator of many aircraft that we use both 100LL avgas and pump premium mogas in, I have seen most damage from mogas on the rubber parts. The issue may also be materials that are used in the construction of fuel systems and their compatibility with there respective fuel that they where designed to be used with. In aircraft, the aircraft was certified to operate on certain spec avgas and that is ALL. That certification is cast in stone by the FAA.

    The sleeve also helps protect anything and everthing the line comes in contsct with. Braided line is like a hacksaw. I completely agree with your assement of pump gas verses AV in the fuel line department. And said as much in the post quoted below. The hose guys have been fighting puimp for years. The stuff is flat nasty.
    Although your are correct about aircraft certified for a certain fuel, 100LL has been given a pretty much clear path as a replacement for 100/130. But they are very different fuels. 100/130 had 4-6 grams of TEL, and no, or very little toluene, or benzene. 100LL has 1.5-2 grams of TEL and up to 15% toluene and little benzene from the refining process. When lead went out, the toluene came in. Along with some other aromatics.
    This is just the opposite of the early 50's when only very high test 115/130 or higher military AV had TEL and very little toluene, and pump gas had no TEL and a good dose of toluene and benzene. But cars had way less rubber in the fuel system then, and tended to be a very high grade natural rubber.
    The early hemi was designed just because of these issues with gas. It allowed more compression with lower octane than any other design. But as TEL became more in use in mogas, the wedge took over, because of costs of manufacturing the hemi.

    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    You think aircraft doesn't sit un-used for extended periods? I know the hose companies are much more concerned with todays pump gas than they ever were about Avgas. Even before the intro of ethanol, they were fighting the aromatics that is in todays pump. Draining the fuel or letting evaporate will harden the lines. They seem much happier to have fuel in them all the time.
    There is no reason anybody should have more issues with AV than mogas. Because there is more of the "bad" in pump, than in AV. Specially if you could ever get your hands on some 100/130. If you are having problems with fuel pumps, its because its a cheap ass design with rubbing parts in the pumping mechanism. In mechanical high pressure pumps, this understandable. In a gas fuel pump, no excuse. OEM pumps last thousands of miles with todays nasty ass pump gas. Holleys and some other cheap ass pumps will have proplems. Pumps like the Weldon, Aeromotives and others, laugh at the stuff. Will adding Marvel Mystery oil help. Probably. It also lowers the octane of the fuel you just bought. I'd rather have a decent pump.
    Will Marvel oil make you fuel lines last longer. If you say it does. I don't really see it. I have to ask, Does it make the lines last longer in a methanol deal. curious, because I really don't know.It they say it does, then it probably does help the fuel lines of a AV deal. But no more so than it would help a pump gas deal. And I never hear of anybody adding Mystery oil to pump gas to make the lines last longer.

    Sleeper, I still maintain, Bruce didn't tell you to add pump to help the fuel lines live. Its because 100% 100LL sucks as a high speed fuel, and it has lead, added to the toluene in the pump, could make a pretty decent fuel.

    Also, 110 race fuels contain very little if any toluene or benzene. But the high end 116-117 stuff does. And trust me, it F's up fuel lines. And I believe Maxi found that out too!



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  • 10-08-2010, 08:12 PM
    gn7
    Quote Originally Posted by Btnhtillidie View Post
    I have never seen aircraft use stainless braided hose like we use. They have special hoses weather it be for AvGas or Jet A. It's an orange hose that's supposedly fire proof. When I used to run 100 % AvGas I ran that special hose and never had one problem with the hose drying out. The electric fuel pump was a different story. The down side to the hose is it's f'n ugly and big I still have that hose laying around and if I get bored this weekend I will cut it open to see if it's rubber or some other material in there.
    You are way to "new school." The stainless stuff was like WWII or post war surplus. I am certain they have moved on from that stuff. Weight alone would be a huge reason. And most of the stuff that we got was never used for fuel, it was used for hydraulics. I use to get the stuff from an
    aircraft/military/aerospace surplus place called Washington Hardware. The lines were easy to get. The fittings were impossible. Not the hose ends, those were already crimped on. But the fitting adaptors were like non existend then. The only place around was Earl's, which is how they gout started in the braided line thing. Even if you got the line cheap, the fittings were the deal killer. You were cool if you had a braided line going from just your full pump to the carb. And because the ends were already on, it was usually longer than it needed to be.

    I can believe there is much better stuff available to the AC guys. Can you tell if the inside layer is teflon. It seems to be the direction the "performance" industry is going for fuel lines to solve the problems.



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  • 10-08-2010, 06:54 PM
    Tittyman
    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    "also" the rock hard feul filter element. Lack of lubrication---- maybe!!! That would be the mixing part of this thread. PLease don't get me wrong. I have NO PROBLEM running AV feul the way I do it and would not advise against doing so. I am just tossing out ways to use it a problem free way. M
    I understand...no problem. Just wondering why my filter was rock hard..I mean really hard like it spend the winter in a varnish can and then set out to dry..I also run the motor about 3 times during the winter in the garage for a short period.
  • 10-08-2010, 06:50 PM
    ol guy
    "also" the rock hard feul filter element. Lack of lubrication---- maybe!!! That would be the mixing part of this thread. PLease don't get me wrong. I have NO PROBLEM running AV feul the way I do it and would not advise against doing so. I am just tossing out ways to use it a problem free way. M
  • 10-08-2010, 06:47 PM
    Tittyman
    Quote Originally Posted by ol guy View Post
    Just for the info, are you talking about Idaho and if so what is the elevation at the water you run and also where are you getting the AV feul?
    Yes, Idaho and usually around 2200 Ft. which is where Coeur d'Alene is..I get the avgas at the Coeur d'Alene airport..$4.30 per gallon.
  • 10-08-2010, 06:36 PM
    ol guy
    Quote Originally Posted by Tittyman View Post
    So if I read this correctly, some of you are saying if you run avgas you really don't need to add any lubricant at all..aircraft have been using it for years with no problems with fuel lines or carbs and fuel pumps.

    The rest of you are saying the only reason you need to add a lubricant is if you have an electric fuel pump and that is the only reason.

    I have ran avgas for 5 years in my boat without any problems with braided lines or my electric fuel pump...what I did notice is when I changed the fuel filter last spring is that the element portion (paper) was rock hard like it was coated with varnish. Don't know if that was a direct cause of avgas or not..or if the element would look the same with gas and the cause was just from setting idle most of the winter..
    Just for the info, are you talking about Idaho and if so what is the elevation at the water you run and also where are you getting the AV feul?
  • 10-08-2010, 06:35 PM
    Speed of Heat
    The orange colored hose is actually a fire sleeve that is pulled over the AN hose to better protect in case of fire.-In reference to the issue of hoses deteriorating, I suspect that it most likely has a relationship to the amount of toluene in the fuel. As an owner operator of many aircraft that we use both 100LL avgas and pump premium mogas in, I have seen most damage from mogas on the rubber parts. The issue may also be materials that are used in the construction of fuel systems and their compatibility with there respective fuel that they where designed to be used with. In aircraft, the aircraft was certified to operate on certain spec avgas and that is ALL. That certification is cast in stone by the FAA. Unless more testing is done and re certification is approved by the FAA there is no improvement to the product at all period even if small technological advances would make it safer.
  • 10-08-2010, 06:27 PM
    Tittyman
    So if I read this correctly, some of you are saying if you run avgas you really don't need to add any lubricant at all..aircraft have been using it for years with no problems with fuel lines or carbs and fuel pumps.

    The rest of you are saying the only reason you need to add a lubricant is if you have an electric fuel pump and that is the only reason.

    I have ran avgas for 5 years in my boat without any problems with braided lines or my electric fuel pump...what I did notice is when I changed the fuel filter last spring is that the element portion (paper) was rock hard like it was coated with varnish. Don't know if that was a direct cause of avgas or not..or if the element would look the same with gas and the cause was just from setting idle most of the winter..
  • 10-08-2010, 06:01 PM
    ol guy
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper CP View Post
    Some sanity to this thread. Thank you.

    As of yet I'm the only person I know of to do back to back dyno testing with AV gas vs race gas. Trick 104 vs avg gas mixes with 91 ( 3:1) with super un-leaded. Same timing, same jets the av gas made .00584795321 % less power than the Trick 104 in an 855 hp 11:1 compression engine.

    Hopefully I'll be doing some more back to back testing in a 13:1 980+hp engine in the next few months. I'll let you know.

    Oh yeah, the Av gas I used to run was tough on the rubber inside the braided hoses. Just pour some of it on your hands and your hands would dry out like now. The super un-leaded seemed to help.

    S CP
    Read the WHOLE thread before a statement like that! That would have covered the mixing part for lube qualities.
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