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  1. #1
    Senior Member EVILFORCE's Avatar
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    Obama memo justifies drone-war killing of Americans


    Does President Barack Obama have the right to order the assassination of an American anywhere in the world—without any oversight from Congress or the courts, and even if that U.S. citizen is not actively plotting a specific terrorist attack? His administration, in a stunning Justice Department memo laying out a broad legal rationale for the country's ever-expanding drone war, says yes.The 16-page document, obtained by NBC News, emerged days before John Brennan, Obama's chief counterterrorism adviser and the foremost architect of America’s hugely controversial unmanned aerial vehicle war, goes before the Senate Intelligence Committee in a Thursday hearing on his confirmation as CIA director.
    Obama campaigned in 2008 as a fierce critic of George W. Bush’s national security policies, but he has apparently learned to stop worrying and love nearly unfettered executive power—the literal power of life and death over fellow U.S. citizens overseas thought to be consorting with extremists groups that may be targeting America. So, under what circumstances does he have the right to act?
    The memo says “an informed, high-level official of the U.S. government” must decide that the target is a "senior operational leader" of al-Qaida or "associated forces," “poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States,” and that an attempt to capture that individual is “infeasible.”
    “Targeting a member of an enemy force who poses an imminent threat of violent attack to the United States is not unlawful. It is a lawful act of self-defense,” the document asserts.
    "Imminent threat"? That seems reasonable and is a traditional standard for military action. Except that, as NBC investigative reporter Michael Isikoff notes, the memo adds that “the condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future.”
    Instead, that previously mentioned "high-level official" can determine that the potential target was “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of an attack and that “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.”
    Isikoff notes the memo does not define "activities" or "recently," leaving that up to the administration to determine on a case-by-case basis.
    The memo notes that the president can order a strike against al-Qaida far beyond the battlefield of Afghanistan, and it makes clear that he will not be constrained by national sovereignty. Either a country will give the green light to drone strikes on its territory, or America will strike if that country is "unable or willing" to do so.
    This is no surprise. Obama famously said in the 2008 campaign that he would order an attack inside Pakistan to get Osama bin Laden, whether or not Islamabad signed off. He made made good on that promise, ordering the raid on bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, on May 1, 2011, which killed the terrorist leader.
    The memo is sure to trigger another round of questions from Congress about the drone war, which has been shrouded in secrecy. And it comes at a time when that campaign is powerfully unpopular overseas, according to a June 2012 Pew Research poll. While 62 percent of Americans approve of the approach, 44 percent of respondents in staunch ally Britain do. And the numbers plummet in countries with large Muslim populations: 6 percent in Egypt, for instance, and 9 percent in NATO ally Turkey.
    That's in part the reflection of anger over civilian casualties from such attacks. Obama has grappled with that problem ever since the very first drone strike on his watch, a Jan. 23, 2009, attack that reportedly claimed the life of "an innocent tribal elder" in Pakistan. A May 2012 New York Times report said that the administration minimizes civilian casualties by counting "all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants."
    The memo drew a withering response from the American Civil Liberties Union.
    “This is a profoundly disturbing document, and it’s hard to believe that it was produced in a democracy built on a system of checks and balances,” said Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU’s National Security Project. “It summarizes in cold legal terms a stunning overreach of executive authority—the claimed power to declare Americans a threat and kill them far from a recognized battlefield and without any judicial involvement before or after the fact.”


    Obama memo justifies drone-war killing of Americans | The Ticket - Yahoo! News

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    Senior Member inthecurl's Avatar
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    And remember how upset liberals were with the Patriot act ??? Well Obama has doubled down on it spying on more than triple the people W did..... But it's ok, cause Barry's a liberal and it's fine if he has that power.

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    gn7
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    Lets not forget, because he has the courts behind him, thats all he needs. If the courts say its OK, it must be legal.
    Ask snoc.
    Now that they are doing drone over flights here in America, how long until they take out an American in US soil without a trial. All "legal" because the courts say OK? I don't think so!

    Hitler's Justices. There were others but they were acquitted. But this is enough to show what can happen when you are stupid enough to "go along" because the courts back up a tyrant.
    So, if and when the "courts" outlaw your guns and other "Bill of Rights", then it LEGAL?
    What say you snoc? If a snot nosed amred to the teeth FEMA brown shirt shows up at my door to take my guns, do I hand them over? Or shoot his traitorous ass?


    Josef Altstötter — Guilty, sentenced to five years’ imprisonment
    Wilhelm von Ammon — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Karl Engert — Unfit to stand trial
    Günther Joel — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Herbert Klemm — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Ernst Lautz — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Wolfgang Mettgenberg — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Rudolf Oeschey — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Oswald Rothaug — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Curt Rothenberger — Guilty, sentenced to seven years’ imprisonment
    Franz Schlegelberger — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Carl Westphal — Committed suicide after his indictment but before the beginning of his trial




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    Last edited by gn7; 02-05-2013 at 12:13 PM.

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    Just Me snoc653's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Lets not forget, because he has the courts behind him, thats all he needs. If the courts say its OK, it must be legal.
    Ask snoc.
    Now that they are doing drone over flights here in America, how long until they take out an American in US soil without a trial. All "legal" because the courts say OK? I don't think so!

    Hitler's Justices. There were others but they were acquitted. But this is enough to show what can happen when you are stupid enough to "go along" because the courts back up a tyrant.
    So, if and when the "courts" outlaw your guns and other "Bill of Rights", then it LEGAL?
    What say you snoc? If a snot nosed amred to the teeth FEMA brown shirt shows up at my door to take my guns, do I hand them over? Or shoot his traitorous ass?


    Josef Altstötter — Guilty, sentenced to five years’ imprisonment
    Wilhelm von Ammon — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Karl Engert — Unfit to stand trial
    Günther Joel — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Herbert Klemm — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Ernst Lautz — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Wolfgang Mettgenberg — Guilty, sentenced to 10 years’ imprisonment
    Rudolf Oeschey — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Oswald Rothaug — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Curt Rothenberger — Guilty, sentenced to seven years’ imprisonment
    Franz Schlegelberger — Guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment
    Carl Westphal — Committed suicide after his indictment but before the beginning of his trial
    Well since you brought my name up, Yes Bob, if the Supreme Court rules that something is legal, it is LEGAL. duhhhh There is no higher authority to appeal it to in our constitutional system. If people don't like it being legal, they need to get someone to pass a new law which makes it illegal.

    Has the Supreme Court ruled on these drone killings? I don't think so. But then again, nobody has brought any charges against anyone, nor has there been any lower court rulings for anyone to take to the Supreme Court. It is a slippery slope when dealing with citizens outside of the United States. Show me in the constitution where American Citizens are granted rights outside of the US. Yes it may be a loop hole, but until someone plugs the hole, this administration will use it to their advantage.
    So many projects, so little time

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    And with water boarding

    Quote Originally Posted by inthecurl View Post
    And remember how upset liberals were with the Patriot act ??? Well Obama has doubled down on it spying on more than triple the people W did..... But it's ok, cause Barry's a liberal and it's fine if he has that power.
    www.facebook.com/RitcheyRch

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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoc653 View Post
    Well since you brought my name up, Yes Bob, if the Supreme Court rules that something is legal, it is LEGAL. duhhhh There is no higher authority to appeal it to in our constitutional system. If people don't like it being legal, they need to get someone to pass a new law which makes it illegal.

    Has the Supreme Court ruled on these drone killings? I don't think so. But then again, nobody has brought any charges against anyone, nor has there been any lower court rulings for anyone to take to the Supreme Court. It is a slippery slope when dealing with citizens outside of the United States. Show me in the constitution where American Citizens are granted rights outside of the US. Yes it may be a loop hole, but until someone plugs the hole, this administration will use it to their advantage.
    WOW snoc, the fact that YOU swore to uphold the constitution AND protect against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC scares the shit out of me. Makes me wonder just how many drones like yourself the CIC has under his command!
    When did hunting down and killing American civilian citizens anywhere in the world become a military operation? In a country we are NOT at war with.
    Who the fuck decides that ANY American leaves his RIGHTS as an American at the airport. OBAMA, and his gun running AG?


    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."




    So, in your mind, even after the "schooling" on what the Bill of Rights says about being a RESTRICTION on the powers of the government, and NOT just rights of the people, AND knowing what has happened in other countries(or should know), you are still of the mind that the POTUS can do no wrong because the COURTS say its OK, or they remain silent on the subject. GOD HELP US ALL IF THE MAJORITY OF THE MILITARY THINKS AS YOU DO!

    TOO BAD WE DIDN'T HAVE DRONES WHEN OBAMA VISITED PAKISTAN IN '81 AS A INDONESIAN CITIZEN. WE WOULDN'T BE IN THE MESS TODAY!



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    Last edited by gn7; 02-05-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    Senior Member wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoc653 View Post
    Has the Supreme Court ruled on these drone killings? I don't think so. But then again, nobody has brought any charges against anyone, nor has there been any lower court rulings for anyone to take to the Supreme Court. It is a slippery slope when dealing with citizens outside of the United States. Show me in the constitution where American Citizens are granted rights outside of the US. Yes it may be a loop hole, but until someone plugs the hole, this administration will use it to their advantage.
    Any American has the right to a trial by a jury of their peers. Once the US deems that you have broken the law (and yes, unless they have renounced citizenship, they are still a citizen of the US) they are given a right to a trial. Doesn't matter if they're outside the US, they've broken US laws and must be tried in a US court. That's what extradition is. There is no loophole!!!

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    Default Cutting expenses??

    Why waste a drone's fuel, or a rocket to kill an American Citizen who has become a terrorist in a terrorist supporting nation? Just let it leak out the he/she is actually working for the CIA and let the terrorists take them out.... No blood on our hands, no violation of "rights", no muss, no fuss, still very dead. The administration would then only be guilty of "conspiracy to commit MURDER" instead of out and out MURDER...Or would that be considered "MURDER for hire"??.....
    AND, they, (the dimbulbs) said Bush/Cheney were war criminals????
    One of the things I'm most tired of is the fucking double standards that have become the "normal" instead of the "exception".....

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    Red Blooded American The Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneypit View Post
    Why waste a drone's fuel, or a rocket to kill an American Citizen who has become a terrorist in a terrorist supporting nation? Just let it leak out the he/she is actually working for the CIA and let the terrorists take them out.... No blood on our hands, no violation of "rights", no muss, no fuss, still very dead. The administration would then only be guilty of "conspiracy to commit MURDER" instead of out and out MURDER...Or would that be considered "MURDER for hire"??.....
    AND, they, (the dimbulbs) said Bush/Cheney were war criminals????
    One of the things I'm most tired of is the fucking double standards that have become the "normal" instead of the "exception".....

    Ray
    Exactly how Christopher Stevens died! Exactly why nothing was done for seven hours with troops 50 minutes away.
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    Default Huh??

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    Exactly how Christopher Stevens died! Exactly why nothing was done for seven hours with troops 50 minutes away.
    So, are you saying Stevens was an American Citizen terrorist helping Libyan supported terrorists?? Somehow that's not the image I got from the information available... Was he murdered? Yes, but not for the reasons I mentioned above...
    Ray
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    Red Blooded American The Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moneypit View Post
    So, are you saying Stevens was an American Citizen terrorist helping Libyan supported terrorists?? Somehow that's not the image I got from the information available... Was he murdered? Yes, but not for the reasons I mentioned above...
    Ray
    Not at all! What I'm saying is that Stevens was very close to uncovering the source of all the firearms support to the bad guys in Libya. That source was the White House and something had to be done quickly and concisely before it backfired. Thank heavens the media and the liberals have no interest in the truth as they hope this dog will just fall asleep so they can leave him lie.
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    Default Firearms.....

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    Not at all! What I'm saying is that Stevens was very close to uncovering the source of all the firearms support to the bad guys in Libya. That source was the White House and something had to be done quickly and concisely before it backfired. Thank heavens the media and the liberals have no interest in the truth as they hope this dog will just fall asleep so they can leave him lie.
    Firearms?? How about tanks and planes???? 4 jets delivered, and 16 to go?? You really have to dig to find anyone dumber than obama when it comes to picking and choosing our international friends.... AND, since we all know obama couldn't be that dumb, we have to assume it's all part of his agenda to destroy American from within..... Of course Libya won't use them against us until obama is safely tucked away back in that Kenyan village that's missing it's IDIOT....
    Ray
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    gn7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    Exactly how Christopher Stevens died! Exactly why nothing was done for seven hours with troops 50 minutes away.
    BAM!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    Not at all! What I'm saying is that Stevens was very close to uncovering the source of all the firearms support to the bad guys in Libya. That source was the White House and something had to be done quickly and concisely before it backfired. Thank heavens the media and the liberals have no interest in the truth as they hope this dog will just fall asleep so they can leave him lie.
    DOUBLE BAM!!!!!

    Courts are quite, AG is quite, Sec of State asked what the big deal its over! I guess all is OK then.



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