Thread:

You Christians are a wild bunch

Originally Posted by steelcomp

H. It's IMPOSSIBLE to understand without the indwelling of the Spirit, which Scripture tells we receive after baptism.


HOWEVER....I don't think you have to understand in order to believe, and belief precedes faith. The night Christ told His disciples He was leaving them,. They were quite confused. It was only after they were baptized with the Spirit at Pentecost when they truly understood,

Well you're right, Paul was struck blind, overwhelming force used to get him to believe, to get his attention, before he got the word.
I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on whether there was indwelling or outpouring, that's just me. The apostles got baptized and were given super powers. Not me. I don't know if you remember, but I was baptized once as an infant in a Catholic church, IMO a pointless act. But 1 billion Catholics believe you can't go to heaven without that, so you baptize a baby quick in case it dies.
I don't feel a need for another baptism, but one I day I might get off my lukewarm ass and do it.

So who does the baptism? A saint? And what is a Saint? Opinions vary:
1. Born again Christians believe that they are all saints. All go to heaven.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses believe 144k saints go to heaven. The rest of us, a great multitude, are resurrected for an eternal life on a Paradise Earth.
3. Catholics figure the Saints are on some list kept in Rome. They don't really believe in hellfire, so they have this Purgatory thing going.

Originally Posted by steelcomp

O...
THAT'S WHY HE DIED, SO YOU COULD BE FORGIVEN YOUR SINS! THERE

YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Peter told the Jews clearly "repent, and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin".
You say you're still a sinner. I agree. That means you're still in the realm of the flesh because as long as you're in the condition of sin, there can be no spirit in you or in your heart. That's part of the fundamental condition of the sinful heart. As long as there is sin, the Spirit can not enter or dwell, nor can Christ or the Word live in your heart.
That's why He sent His Son... to fix that problem is YOUR sin.
Don't you understand that Jesus didn't suffer and die the worst, most horrible death known to man at that time, just so you can proclaim of your own will "you have faith and repent" and all is good. And to say that after tall that He did, you think you're going to remain a sinner, even after He paid that ultimate price and made that sacrifice for you?
That's the Love the Father has for ALL His children. He became sin for you, and gave you the means to solve the problem through a very simple process called baptism. It's not a works, it's a means and a process.

I don't want to get totally sideways here, but I think there is room for clarity on this point; Jesus died for our sins, for original sin, Adam's sin, the sin we were born with. Everyone's sin. That obstacle was removed. But we still have our own individual sins to deal with. Adam was perfect and decided to sin. Angels were in heaven with God and decided to sin. I suppose we could die, go to heaven, be angels with God, and at that point still decide to sin. And what about a child, born in sin, but too young to know right from wrong? Can he go to heaven? I would think it's possible.

Originally Posted by thatguy

???
confessional

Catholic priests believe they can forgive sins. Ay yi yi.

Originally Posted by thatguy

???
What cloth would that be?

Yeah, I got lost there too?

Originally Posted by SBjet

Well you're right, Paul was struck blind, overwhelming force used to get him to believe, to get his attention, before he got the word.
I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on whether there was indwelling or outpouring, that's just me.

But by reading, we see there is a very distinct difference. Why ignore that? It's fundamental to the whole process.

Originally Posted by SBjet

The apostles got baptized and were given super powers. Not me. I don't know if you remember, but I was baptized once as an infant in a Catholic church, IMO a pointless act. But 1 billion Catholics believe you can't go to heaven without that, so you baptize a baby quick in case it dies.

So? Scripture says repent, and be baptized. I don't know too many infants that can repent. I don't know of any passage in Scripture that says someone can repent for you, either. The whole thing is nonsense according to Scripture, but you're right...1 billion lemmings follow the leader.

Originally Posted by SBjet

I don't feel a need for another baptism, but one I day I might get off my lukewarm ass and do it.

Feelings are important.

Originally Posted by SBjet

So who does the baptism? A saint? And what is a Saint? Opinions vary:I gave my opinion on that earlier.
1. Born again Christians believe that they are all saints. All go to heaven.
2. Jehovah's Witnesses believe 144k saints go to heaven. The rest of us, a great multitude, are resurrected for an eternal life on a Paradise Earth.
3. Catholics figure the Saints are on some list kept in Rome. They don't really believe in hellfire, so they have this Purgatory thing going.

I guess that's for you to decide. I can tell you what Scripture says but then I'll be being judgmental, self righteous, angry, an asshole...so I'll pass. The answer's in the book and I don't care what religious doctrine says.

Originally Posted by SBjet

I don't want to get totally sideways here, but I think there is room for clarity on this point; Jesus died for our sins, for original sin, Adam's sin, the sin we were born with. Everyone's sin. That obstacle was removed. But we still have our own individual sins to deal with. Adam was perfect and decided to sin. Angels were in heaven with God and decided to sin. I suppose we could die, go to heaven, be angels with God, and at that point still decide to sin. And what about a child, born in sin, but too young to know right from wrong? Can he go to heaven? I would think it's possible.

Again, the asnwer is in God's word. I wouldn't want to "mis interpret it" for you.
However, you say "that obstacle was removed". I disagree, and I'd like to see where you get that.

Originally Posted by SBjet

Catholic priests believe they can forgive sins. Ay yi yi.

Ay yi yi agree.

Originally Posted by snoc653

Actually Doc, I quoted SC's real quote. Although I agree the edited version you read is probably more true, it's not really what he said. And while I do read this thread and shake my head, as I tend to do anytime Steel jumps into a thread of religious ideology, I try not to post in them anymore because his attitude is what was posted with the help of interpretation. I do pray that someday he will see that if the entire Christian world keeps telling him, he's missing some of the points; that he'll wake up and get it some day.

And your concept of putting him on ignore has probably saved your blood pressure at least a time or 2 dozen. But I also know you don't want be responding to false quotes, it goes against your very positive nature.

The WHOLE ENTIRE CHRISTIAN WORLD??? Wow. That's a lot of Christians. I wonder how many of them are the "few" that Christ was referring to, or do you think He was just joking?
I don't argue religious idology. I'll leave that for you.
If the "entire christian world" tells me I'm missing the point, it just shows me I'm on the right track.

What was the "man of the cloth" dealio??

Originally Posted by thatguy

What was the "man of the cloth" dealio??

You've never heard that expression?

Originally Posted by steelcomp

You've never heard that expression?

Of course, just didn't get why you applied that to me?
Something about being a "deacon" also??

Maybe mixed me up with someone else?

Originally Posted by thatguy

Of course, just didn't get why you applied that to me?
Something about being a "deacon" also??

Maybe mixed me up with someone else?

Yep...you're right. Got you confuzed with someone else. My apologies.

Originally Posted by steelcomp

If the "entire christian world" tells me I'm missing the point, it just shows me I'm on the right track.

I'm sure the fine folks at Westboro keep telling themselves the same thing. Is your last name Phelps?

Originally Posted by steelcomp

Yep...you're right. Got you confuzed with someone else. My apologies.

It happens.

Originally Posted by steelcomp

I don't argue religious idology.

Originally Posted by snoc653

Actually Doc, I quoted SC's real quote. Although I agree the edited version you read is probably more true, it's not really what he said. And while I do read this thread and shake my head, as I tend to do anytime Steel jumps into a thread of religious ideology, I try not to post in them anymore because his attitude is what was posted with the help of interpretation. I do pray that someday he will see that if the entire Christian world keeps telling him, he's missing some of the points; that he'll wake up and get it some day.

And your concept of putting him on ignore has probably saved your blood pressure at least a time or 2 dozen. But I also know you don't want be responding to false quotes, it goes against your very positive nature.

I find it refreshing to see that this was an altered post because it was more than unusual. My apologies for re-posting inaccurate material about anyone. That's simply not fair. I'd like to say that the actual quote was something that I could agree with but I'll hold my tongue on that. Again, my apologies to Scott and anyone who misinterpreted because of my copying a misquoted reference.

Originally Posted by SBjet

. . . And what about a child, born in sin, but too young to know right from wrong? Can he go to heaven? I would think it's possible.

You would be 100% correct on that assumption.

Originally Posted by jayteetrotter

Just so I am clear, are you insinuating that you are not a sinner?

Of course not. That has nothing to do with what you said.
You said you can do nothing about your sin, not about being a sinner. Big difference.
Two kinds of sin that Scripture refers to:
The sin we are ALL born into which is the condition of our heart. It's our sinful nature. This is the sin that separates us from the Father, and the sin we have no choice in.
This is where you are.
Then there is our daily willful sin...which we choose to do and which is part of that sinful nature.
Our "default" condition of sin which we are born into is what Christ came to remove so that we may have a relationship with the Father. The means by which that sin is removed is through baptism.
You haven't done that.
I have.
Once we do that, we can have that relationship with the Father through Christ and the Spirit, and by that relationship we can ask for forgiveness of our daily, willful sin.
You can't do that. You can, but it falls on deaf ears.
The sanctified saint can and should on a regular basis.
Through the sanctification process, hopefully, our relationship with the Father grows and there is a change that takes place in us. You are a new creature, a new creation, no longer controlled by the sinful nature and the flesh, but led by the Spirit and the desire to please God. The willful sin in your life should become less and less as you grow in your relationship with the Father but don't be fooled into thinking once saved, always saved. If you've been baptized for the forgiveness of your sin, it's done and that can't be undone but if you choose to go on sinning, you place yourself outside that grace that will save you. Baptism is kinda like paying admission to a movie, and sinning afterwards is like wanting to go outside for a smoke. Baptism gives you a "hand stamp" so to speak, so you don't have to "pay admission" to get back in, and you can go in and out as many times as you like. The problem with this "movie" (called life) is, at some point they're going to lock the doors and if you're on the wrong side of those doors when they do, tough luck. It's best to not play that game.