A Debate on Socialism.....Let's hear it!
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A Debate on Socialism.....Let's hear it!

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    Default A Debate on Socialism.....Let's hear it!

    Until yesterday I have avoided the Political Rhetoric forum on these boards.

    There has been a lot of misuse of the word socialist and socialism in the media and on these boards. In fact in the last 3 years, socialism has become a dirty word that most on the right use as a degrading derogatory term at those who do not share their beliefs. Our country was founded on core principals, in which spirited debate is not only excepted, but encouraged.

    I thought it might make for a good intellectual exercise to debate a specific point.

    Those against socialism might be quite surprised to know that the U.S. Public Library System is absolute socialism. The Public Library Act was passed in 1857 and has been running smoothly ever since. For those of you that are completely against socialism it would only make sense that you are also against the Public Library System, since it truly is the “poster child” for socialism with a history in Europe going back hundreds of years.

    I chose this as the point of debate, since it is far from today’s political rhetoric, yet any argument both for and against can easily be converted to just about any of today’s current political situations, for and against socialism.

    For those of you against socialism this should be an easy mental exercise and you should have no problem putting your perspective eloquently below as to why we should abolish the Public Library. If your are a die-hard anti socialism defender, Tea Party member, hard core conservative, here is your chance to help change some minds about your views. Those on the left will see opportunity for respectful rebuttal.

    Here are some basic rules:

    No name calling (it is so unproductive)
    Stay on point (this debate is about socialism in regards to the Public Library only. Start a new thread if you cannot control yourself!)

    This all might be asking too much for the completely ignorant, however, no matter what your views, left or right, most of the people on the Political Rhetoric threads are older and have formed their opinions through many life experiences, which I totally respect, regardless if I agree or not. I just want to see if we can have a civil debate.

    Here are some philosophical questions:

    Does the library cheat publishers, authors, movie makers, and many more out of a fair profit? Does the common good out weigh the negatives? Without the library would a John Grisham book now cost over $100? Does the library have a positive or negative impact on the poor or the rich? Who benefits the most? Who does not? Are the operational costs to taxpayers worth the benefit?


    These are just some questions, you will see more

    Here is some info from wikepedia:

    A public library (also called circulating library) is a library which is accessible by the public and is generally funded from public sources (such as tax money) and may be operated by civil servants. Taxing bodies for public libraries may be at any level from local to national central government level.
    Public libraries exist in most places in the world and are often considered an essential part of having an educated and literate population. Public libraries are distinct from research libraries, school libraries, or other special libraries in that their mandate is to serve the public's information needs generally (rather than serve a particular school, institution, or research population), as well as offering materials for general entertainment and leisure purposes.

    Public libraries typically are lending libraries, allowing users to take books and other materials off the premises temporarily; they also have non-circulating reference collections. Public libraries primarily focus on popular materials such as popular fiction and movies, as well as educational and nonfiction materials of interest to the general public; computer and internet access are also often offered.

    LET THE SOCIALISM DEBATE GET STARTED!

    Respectfully,

    C-Ya

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    It is rather funny you use the library as the example as I don't see the library as socialist just because the government funds it. First: Use of the library is not mandantory, such is not the case of Obamacare. Second: even though I seldom use the library I see it as another government service available to all for educationial purposes, not unlike the public school system. Sort of an extention of the public schools if you will. Third: If you see the library as a socialist end-product then you must view the Highway system, bridges, tunnels and all the other supporting infastructure as socialist as well. Not to exclude canals, irrigation systems, dams, sewer and water utilities as socialist. Why don't you use the military as an example of communism while you are at it? Just because the government funds a project or such does not mean it falls under the banner of socialism. Our government was created by our founding fathers to better our society by improving the quality of life by providing the resources to construct projects that private individules could not afford. Furthermore with today's technology the library is quickly becoming obsolete. How do book authors and publisher handle the new electronic way of downloading books on say 'Kindles' and with all the info available on the internet one has little use for a library for any type of research with Google just a mouse click away at any hour of the day or night. Plus parking is a bitch around my local library anyway.
    Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved. "Good grief you're an irritating blowhard...." [Tex 6/16/11]

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    Quote Originally Posted by 058 View Post
    It is rather funny you use the library as the example as I don't see the library as socialist just because the government funds it. First: Use of the library is not mandantory, such is not the case of Obamacare. Second: even though I seldom use the library I see it as another government service available to all for educationial purposes, not unlike the public school system. Sort of an extention of the public schools if you will. Third: If you see the library as a socialist end-product then you must view the Highway system, bridges, tunnels and all the other supporting infastructure as socialist as well. Not to exclude canals, irrigation systems, dams, sewer and water utilities as socialist. Why don't you use the military as an example of communism while you are at it? Just because the government funds a project or such does not mean it falls under the banner of socialism. Our government was created by our founding fathers to better our society by improving the quality of life by providing the resources to construct projects that private individules could not afford. Furthermore with today's technology the library is quickly becoming obsolete. How do book authors and publisher handle the new electronic way of downloading books on say 'Kindles' and with all the info available on the internet one has little use for a library for any type of research with Google just a mouse click away at any hour of the day or night. Plus parking is a bitch around my local library anyway.
    My view exactly 58. I think the gentleman is confused about what a social program is, and what Karl Marx devised as Socialism which took various forms such as Communism, The National Socialist Party (NAZI), and etc. which is still evolving Socialism in Europe.

    In a Political Forum we talk about Political Socialism.

    However, while I support the Public Library system, if you live in a Liberal area like I do, you would be hard pressed to find books by conservative authors in the local library.

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    Red Blooded American The Doctor's Avatar
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    The public library is funded from the general treasury. With up-wards of 1000 government agencies sucking funds out of the general fund faster than tax dollars can replenish it, something drastic must be done. Whether it's the library or hundreds of other agencies, departments, operations or groups funded from the treasury, some very tough decisions must be made - post haste - in order to save our government from complete financial collapse.

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
    Margaret Thatcher

    This has now happened all over America and our current administration wasn't smart enough to see that it has.
    CUT HERE - CUT NOW!
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Ya View Post
    Until yesterday I have avoided the Political Rhetoric forum on these boards.

    There has been a lot of misuse of the word socialist and socialism in the media and on these boards. In fact in the last 3 years, socialism has become a dirty word that most on the right use as a degrading derogatory term at those who do not share their beliefs. Our country was founded on core principals, in which spirited debate is not only excepted, but encouraged.

    I thought it might make for a good intellectual exercise to debate a specific point.

    Those against socialism might be quite surprised to know that the U.S. Public Library System is absolute socialism. The Public Library Act was passed in 1857 and has been running smoothly ever since. For those of you that are completely against socialism it would only make sense that you are also against the Public Library System, since it truly is the “poster child” for socialism with a history in Europe going back hundreds of years.

    I chose this as the point of debate, since it is far from today’s political rhetoric, yet any argument both for and against can easily be converted to just about any of today’s current political situations, for and against socialism.

    For those of you against socialism this should be an easy mental exercise and you should have no problem putting your perspective eloquently below as to why we should abolish the Public Library. If your are a die-hard anti socialism defender, Tea Party member, hard core conservative, here is your chance to help change some minds about your views. Those on the left will see opportunity for respectful rebuttal.

    Here are some basic rules:

    No name calling (it is so unproductive)
    Stay on point (this debate is about socialism in regards to the Public Library only. Start a new thread if you cannot control yourself!)

    This all might be asking too much for the completely ignorant, however, no matter what your views, left or right, most of the people on the Political Rhetoric threads are older and have formed their opinions through many life experiences, which I totally respect, regardless if I agree or not. I just want to see if we can have a civil debate.

    Here are some philosophical questions:

    Does the library cheat publishers, authors, movie makers, and many more out of a fair profit? Does the common good out weigh the negatives? Without the library would a John Grisham book now cost over $100? Does the library have a positive or negative impact on the poor or the rich? Who benefits the most? Who does not? Are the operational costs to taxpayers worth the benefit?


    These are just some questions, you will see more

    Here is some info from wikepedia:

    A public library (also called circulating library) is a library which is accessible by the public and is generally funded from public sources (such as tax money) and may be operated by civil servants. Taxing bodies for public libraries may be at any level from local to national central government level.
    Public libraries exist in most places in the world and are often considered an essential part of having an educated and literate population. Public libraries are distinct from research libraries, school libraries, or other special libraries in that their mandate is to serve the public's information needs generally (rather than serve a particular school, institution, or research population), as well as offering materials for general entertainment and leisure purposes.

    Public libraries typically are lending libraries, allowing users to take books and other materials off the premises temporarily; they also have non-circulating reference collections. Public libraries primarily focus on popular materials such as popular fiction and movies, as well as educational and nonfiction materials of interest to the general public; computer and internet access are also often offered.

    LET THE SOCIALISM DEBATE GET STARTED!

    Respectfully,

    C-Ya
    I have to disagree with you C-Ya. The term socialism has not just become popular in the last three years by those on the right. Look at videos from the 60's and 70's starring Ronald Reagan when he was arguing against nationalized health care. He threw the term around frequently. The fact is that the right has used the term to scare the average voter into siding with them for years. I do agree that the right more often than not uses the terms: socialism, communism, nazis, etc incorectly to strike fear into the general population.
    Last edited by ram78d10; 03-16-2011 at 07:48 PM.

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    Senior Member Ron Hill's Avatar
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    Default The Trouble With Socialism...

    Sooner or later you run out of other people's money to spend...

    Look at the JACKASSES in Wisconsin and Michigan. The state is broke, and the unions want THEIR money anyway.


    Pubic Unions and Private Unions are different. As Rush says, "Who is looking out for the tax payer when pubic sector unions negotiate??"

    Sweden has been a big socialist state.....They are doing well right now, but they are moving away from socialism..

    Show me where socialism works or has worked!!!!

    Close libraries..GOOGLE has replaced them... Close the post office....Close public schools, issue vouchers.

    Tax churches! Why should my taxes support churches?

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    Socialism works until you run out of other peoples money.

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    I just love it when someone comes in and sets their personal rules of debate in the typical condescending tone like some smiley schoolmarm completely removed from the reality of the outside world.

    The Public Library is a poor analogy to the workings of a government as a whole. Let's instead discuss the USSR and how that little experiment fell on it's asse in crumpled defeat. We can throw in how Vlad Putin has warned the US from heading down a similar road towards a failed in use philosophy.......

    Until then "See Ya....."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Texan View Post
    I just love it when someone comes in and sets their personal rules of debate in the typical condescending tone like some smiley schoolmarm completely removed from the reality of the outside world.
    Good point.

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    Socialized Medicine (ObamaCare) is Socialiam, Thats like Who's in Grants Tomb
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram78d10 View Post
    I have to disagree with you C-Ya. The term socialism has not just become popular in the last three years by those on the right. Look at videos from the 60's and 70's starring Ronald Reagan when he was arguing against nationalized health care. He threw the term around frequently. The fact is that the right has used the term to scare the average voter into siding with them for years. I do agree that the right more often than not uses the terms: socialism, communism, nazis, etc incorectly to strike fear into the general population.
    And the left has been practicing it for years to get people sucking on the teet of government in return for votes.
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    Socialism is a great idea. It just doesn't work because those in charge of it don't live by the rules and laws they impose of others.
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    How many times have we heard "Socialism hasn't worked because the right people haven't been in charge" Just exactly who are the "Right People"? Who appointed them "the right people"? How do we know they are "the right people" Do we get a money back guarantee if it doesn't work? Why do "those people" want to fundamentally change a system that we know works well, has worked well for the last 230+ years and can continue to work well as long as the structure of our society and system is not screwed with? There are plenty of other countries where socialism is already in place and those that are running it seem to be quite pleased with the results. Go there and leave our system alone if you are so unhappy with capitalism.
    Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved. "Good grief you're an irritating blowhard...." [Tex 6/16/11]

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Ya View Post
    Until yesterday I have avoided the Political Rhetoric forum on these boards.

    There has been a lot of misuse of the word socialist and socialism in the media and on these boards. In fact in the last 3 years, socialism has become a dirty word that most on the right use as a degrading derogatory term at those who do not share their beliefs. Our country was founded on core principals, in which spirited debate is not only excepted, but encouraged.

    I thought it might make for a good intellectual exercise to debate a specific point.

    Those against socialism might be quite surprised to know that the U.S. Public Library System is absolute socialism. The Public Library Act was passed in 1857 and has been running smoothly ever since. For those of you that are completely against socialism it would only make sense that you are also against the Public Library System, since it truly is the “poster child” for socialism with a history in Europe going back hundreds of years.

    I chose this as the point of debate, since it is far from today’s political rhetoric, yet any argument both for and against can easily be converted to just about any of today’s current political situations, for and against socialism.

    For those of you against socialism this should be an easy mental exercise and you should have no problem putting your perspective eloquently below as to why we should abolish the Public Library. If your are a die-hard anti socialism defender, Tea Party member, hard core conservative, here is your chance to help change some minds about your views. Those on the left will see opportunity for respectful rebuttal.

    Here are some basic rules:

    No name calling (it is so unproductive)
    Stay on point (this debate is about socialism in regards to the Public Library only. Start a new thread if you cannot control yourself!)

    This all might be asking too much for the completely ignorant, however, no matter what your views, left or right, most of the people on the Political Rhetoric threads are older and have formed their opinions through many life experiences, which I totally respect, regardless if I agree or not. I just want to see if we can have a civil debate.

    Here are some philosophical questions:

    Does the library cheat publishers, authors, movie makers, and many more out of a fair profit? Does the common good out weigh the negatives? Without the library would a John Grisham book now cost over $100? Does the library have a positive or negative impact on the poor or the rich? Who benefits the most? Who does not? Are the operational costs to taxpayers worth the benefit?


    These are just some questions, you will see more

    Here is some info from wikepedia:

    A public library (also called circulating library) is a library which is accessible by the public and is generally funded from public sources (such as tax money) and may be operated by civil servants. Taxing bodies for public libraries may be at any level from local to national central government level.
    Public libraries exist in most places in the world and are often considered an essential part of having an educated and literate population. Public libraries are distinct from research libraries, school libraries, or other special libraries in that their mandate is to serve the public's information needs generally (rather than serve a particular school, institution, or research population), as well as offering materials for general entertainment and leisure purposes.

    Public libraries typically are lending libraries, allowing users to take books and other materials off the premises temporarily; they also have non-circulating reference collections. Public libraries primarily focus on popular materials such as popular fiction and movies, as well as educational and nonfiction materials of interest to the general public; computer and internet access are also often offered.

    LET THE SOCIALISM DEBATE GET STARTED!

    Respectfully,

    C-Ya
    This entire post is absolute nonsense. The term "Socialism" refers to government ownership and or control of a nation's means of production and resources, as opposed to "Capitolism" were most of those things are largely under private ownership and control. Any Capitolist society can use taxation to fund a wide variety of government services without being "Socialist".

    P.S. The various forms of socialism (Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Utopian Socialism, Corporate Socialism etc, etc) are all among the most totalitarian systems of government ever devised, thus they are not well liked by those of us who value individual freedom....
    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
    C.S. Lewis

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