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Detroit diesel two stroke engine - YouTube

Why wouldn't the 2 stroke diesel idea work with a gasoline fueled race engine?
Because a diesel engine like in the pic is not throttled for control. It is controlled by the injectors and how much fuel they are applying. A gasloine setup cant be done like that for a host of reasons. A two stroke gas engine that is throttled wouldnt be a problem but they are inefficient and pollute.
 

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I think heat in the piston is an issue.....lack of time to cool. Assuming a conventional type ring and sealed crank-case.

S CP
 

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I may be wrong but I believe the Sarge is asking if the general idea of a supercharged 2 stroke be used. Not necessarily the GM 2 stroke lay out. The answer is Sarge, it can. But is banned in almost every form of racing. Smokey Yunick claimed long ago that every race in virtually every form of racing, aside from the upper drag classes could dominated by a 2 stroke boxer engine if there were no rules at all governing the engines, or the fuel tank size.



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They have been building 2 stroke turbo motors for years.. Velasco out of brigam city was doing turbo sled motors in the 80's. Different that the op's vid....they did it 'old school" pressurized crankcase. That is how the piston stays cool. Valves on a 2 stroke might be an issue...limited seat time means they get hot and opening/closing every crank rotation could have control issues.....

As for racing....the rules don't apply on the salt.KAWASAKI TRIPLES WORLDWIDE turbocharge polaris 700 2 stroke snowmobile engine dragbike

2 Stroke fuel control is just plain nasty. I think Bimota tried a non turbo fi 2 stroke street bike years ago with limited sucess
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Just a thought. Seemed like a good idea for a race engine when I looked at it. Here is another idea, what about valves that opened and closed by solinoid type coils? You would not need a camshaft rather a timer that would activate the valve solinoids at the right time. You could have variable valve duration per RPM, steeper opening/closing rates and it would not have all the drag a traditional system has. Might be noisy though.
 

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Just a thought. Seemed like a good idea for a race engine when I looked at it. Here is another idea, what about valves that opened and closed by solinoid type coils? You would not need a camshaft rather a timer that would activate the valve solinoids at the right time. You could have variable valve duration per RPM, steeper opening/closing rates and it would not have all the drag a traditional system has. Might be noisy though.
Its been done. The F1 guys have messed with it. It is capable of being fully programmable with infinite timing/duration/lift events. The electronics just don't exist to do it right at this time. There is a guy in southern calif that has had a running street deal for some time, but it is pretty low speed and primarily a milage/emissions exercise, and its run time is limited due to the solenoids over heating

Keep thinking Sarge. You're bound to come up with something nobody has thought of.



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The modern 2-stroke w/direct injection is amazing. But is limited in the RPM at this point in time. It meets C.A.R.B. emissions and can run on 87 octane
and still produce 1.5 HP per C.I.

The Question I have is how much valve spring pressure does the new Quad cam Mercury motor have
 

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The modern 2-stroke w/direct injection is amazing. But is limited in the RPM at this point in time. It meets C.A.R.B. emissions and can run on 87 octane
and still produce 1.5 HP per C.I.

The Question I have is how much valve spring pressure does the new Quad cam Mercury motor have
A hell of alot less than a equvilent BBC turning the same RPM! Even if you add the two valves together.



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I may be wrong but I believe the Sarge is asking if the general idea of a supercharged 2 stroke be used. Not necessarily the GM 2 stroke lay out. The answer is Sarge, it can. But is banned in almost every form of racing. Smokey Yunick claimed long ago that every race in virtually every form of racing, aside from the upper drag classes could dominated by a 2 stroke boxer engine if there were no rules at all governing the engines, or the fuel tank size.
Smokey is one of my hero's OUTSIDE THE BOX for sure bent every rule
 

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I will probably get bagged on for this but a 2- stroke gasoline engine will not ever pass emission requirements do to the flow thru concept and not be fuel efficient. The 2-stroke diesel will produce more in a bottom end to mid range and still run into the same problem in the emission area. If you go back and watch the video of the monster you will notice that the builder shut butterflies down to slow the engine from dieseling which worked instantly. thus proving that a 2-stroke diesel engine is governed in more than one way. It has been tried in offshore (very succesfully) but again the fuel requirements made it not doable. The compression that is normally required for a diesel app requires such a heavy bottom end that for racing makes it hard to do. Diesel do not fire on spark as does a BBC but compression and heat. They fire cold off a glow plug and once heat is built in the chamber the compression and heat fire the engine from there. That is why to shut down a big rig (so to speak) you don't turn off the spark, you shut off the fuel or air! Okay GN-7 correct me if I am wrong and please be gentle!!! Mark
 

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I will probably get bagged on for this but a 2- stroke gasoline engine will not ever pass emission requirements do to the flow thru concept and not be fuel efficient. The 2-stroke diesel will produce more in a bottom end to mid range and still run into the same problem in the emission area. If you go back and watch the video of the monster you will notice that the builder shut butterflies down to slow the engine from dieseling which worked instantly. thus proving that a 2-stroke diesel engine is governed in more than one way. It has been tried in offshore (very succesfully) but again the fuel requirements made it not doable. The compression that is normally required for a diesel app requires such a heavy bottom end that for racing makes it hard to do. Diesel do not fire on spark as does a BBC but compression and heat. They fire cold off a glow plug and once heat is built in the chamber the compression and heat fire the engine from there. That is why to shut down a big rig (so to speak) you don't turn off the spark, you shut off the fuel or air! Okay GN-7 correct me if I am wrong and please be gentle!!! Mark
What replaced the the 2-stroke Detroit was their D deck 4-stroke a great motor

On the old 2-stoke motor you had a rack injector the new 4-stroke has a electronic controlled unit injector both use the camshaft to apply pressure
to the injector. The newer units have a much greater pressure spraying into the cylinder and greater timing control of the fuel

You are correct about shutting off the air to the motor w/ plate on the old inline 53,71 series motors in case of run away
 

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Steve, I am schooled in the cummins engines that have been in most of the trucks I have owned or driven. Not real savy on the 2-stroke G.M.s . Thanks.Mark
 

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Damn, I wish I had some pictures of the Mercedez Benz in-line 5 diesel that Bruce Crower converted to a 2-stroke gas engine. He built a billet 4 valve alumi head for it, cammed it and it had a small Paxton super charger on it. It was a concept engine to see if he could get 400hp/400lbs ft at 3,500 rpm out of it.

He used the in-line 5 because the crank is indexed perfectly for the 2 stroke conversion.

S CP
 

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:wink2::wink2:
I will probably get bagged on for this but a 2- stroke gasoline engine will not ever pass emission requirements do to the flow thru concept and not be fuel efficient. The 2-stroke diesel will produce more in a bottom end to mid range and still run into the same problem in the emission area. If you go back and watch the video of the monster you will notice that the builder shut butterflies down to slow the engine from dieseling which worked instantly. thus proving that a 2-stroke diesel engine is governed in more than one way. It has been tried in offshore (very succesfully) but again the fuel requirements made it not doable. The compression that is normally required for a diesel app requires such a heavy bottom end that for racing makes it hard to do. Diesel do not fire on spark as does a BBC but compression and heat. They fire cold off a glow plug and once heat is built in the chamber the compression and heat fire the engine from there. That is why to shut down a big rig (so to speak) you don't turn off the spark, you shut off the fuel or air! Okay GN-7 correct me if I am wrong and please be gentle!!! Mark
No, you're 100% correct Mark. Its what killed 2 strokes all across the board. Diesels engines first, then street bikes then dirt bikes and outboards. That was OLD SCHOOL 2 stroke. Welcome to the 21st century!
Today, it can be made as fuel efficient or pretty close, (HP VS fuel usage) and pretty darn clean with electronic direct fuel injection because the only thing "passing thru" is air. The fuel is held back until it is time to fire.

No one was talking about racing a racing 2 stroke diesel Mark, but a 2 stroke gas engine. Yes a diesel needs to be heavy. And I am 99% sure EVERYONE here know that diesels

Diesels have been used successfully in racing. Cummins did ok at Indy, (fuel rules killed them)and Audi FLAT ASS OWED them at LeMan just recently with a diesel. To the point of new rules being written, again! Why Audi keeps trying is beyond me!
It can be done. It requires money and modern technology, but it can be done. And you will be seeing more diesels being raced.

Byt he way Mark, I only jump on you when you being stupid. And don't use age for an excuse, I am older than you are. Time to catch up!:wink2:



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Damn, I wish I had some pictures of the Mercedez Benz in-line 5 diesel that Bruce Crower converted to a 2-stroke gas engine. He built a billet 4 valve alumi head for it, cammed it and it had a small Paxton super charger on it. It was a concept engine to see if he could get 400hp/400lbs ft at 3,500 rpm out of it.

He used the in-line 5 because the crank is indexed perfectly for the 2 stroke conversion.

S CP
All you had to do was ask Jon
The poor thing got over shadowed when Bruce went the other way and added 2 strokes to the existing 4 instead of eliminating 2. The 6 stroke got way more attention that the 2 stroke ever did.



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Bob, don,t pick on me either, I may be older than you and I'll hit you with my walker!! The reason for the old 2 stroke Detroits to have a blower was not to give the engine Lbs of boost but just an air flow through the cylinders to push the exhaust out of the exhaust valves. when they tried to get more power out of them they went to turbos that blew through the blowers and put more fuel through the injectors, that's why they wouldn't last. I've had many of the old 71 series Detroits, I still have one left in a dump truck. There's a reason they call them "Two stroke Jokes". Decent engine for stationary use, not so good for trucks.
 

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Bob, don,t pick on me either, I may be older than you and I'll hit you with my walker!! The reason for the old 2 stroke Detroits to have a blower was not to give the engine Lbs of boost but just an air flow through the cylinders to push the exhaust out of the exhaust valves. when they tried to get more power out of them they went to turbos that blew through the blowers and put more fuel through the injectors, that's why they wouldn't last. I've had many of the old 71 series Detroits, I still have one left in a dump truck. There's a reason they call them "Two stroke Jokes". Decent engine for stationary use, not so good for trucks.
I never said the old Detroits had a blower to create boost. Did you see where I said they did in one of my posts?



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I never said the old Detroits had a blower to create boost. Did you see where I said they did in one of my posts?
I never ment it at you Bob, alot of people automaticly figure that a blower is on there for mega pounds of boost that's why I worded it like that. Maybe I won't hit you with the walker, just my cane!!! You will have to excuse me, The PC took a dump and I'me on an old lap top that is slower than I am, catch you guys later.
 
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