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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I got a chance to spend a day plus at Westech on the dyno testing a few things. Day 2 was cut short because of a water leak in the engine after the second intake manifold change. .. That kind of sucked, but the first day was kind of fun for the "Quick and Dirty" re-fresh I was doing for some testing. Bob (GN7) would have loved this stuff.

"Quick and Dirty" = I used a dingle ball hone at the shop and honed it myself and put a new set of rings in it with lots of help/direction from old friend Geoff Mummert (I watched a lot). This engine has been together since 2011 and has many river miles on it and nitrous passes. I hurt a couple pistons back in Oct running on the bottle. We also put a different cam in it to try out a couple concepts we're working on. The new cam is 275/276 at .050" with a lobe lift of .455/.421 (1.8 rocker) on a 113 lobe sep ran straight up. The old cam (that made 948 hp at 7,200 ) was 281/286 at .050" with a lobe lift of .435/.438 (1.8 rocker) 113 lobe sep and advanced 4*. We shortened the duration up so we could keep the power numbers in the 7,200 - 7,400 rpm range. Peak hp target was 7,200.



Anyway, after getting a good baseline for the single 4 1,200 ( carb built by John at C & J Engineering) I put the flame arrestor on the carb to see what it would do.




3" tall flame arrestor.

Run 8 - no flame arrestor:


Run 10 - Flame arrestor:


We never leaned on it with the single 4. We were just getting a baseline. We didn't even re-jet it on the dyno. Had we worked and got the oil to 180* and pulled 3 - 4 jets out of it to get the AF closer to 13.0 she would have made a bit more power and topped the 2011 single 4 number. We just didn't chase it, because we wanted to spend time on the TR.
After the flame arrestor change we did an oil change and then a few more changes including the tunnel ram and two 1,050's:


The results were pretty good, but there is more to be had.


John at C&J Engineering did the TR carbs as well (I might have been his Customer of the Month in February) and they are damn efficient with their low .4 BSFC numbers. They look damn good too:

I had both carbs- sent them to him to make a "matching set"

There's more to be had, so we'll be going back in May shooting for 4 digits.

That's a little electric Ford vac pump mounted to the engine. It was worth 10 hp and kept the crankcase at a negative 1.7 -1.9" on the single 4. When we swapped out to the TR we let it dry during lunch and were going to hook the vac pump up after some runs letting the silicone dry, but on the third pull we blew out the bead on the rear China wall. We tuned the vac pump on to control the oil leak and it was able to maintain -.5" for most of the pulls. From 7,000 -7,400 it went to positive .5" . That's a loss of 10 hp from where it would have been at -1.8" of vac. When we go back the new GZ vac pump will be mounted and we'll be testing at 9"-12" Vac to see what happens. There will be more than a few mods to the TR and we'll be testing at least 3 separate carb spacer combinations and we'll play with advancing the cam 2* -4*.

One thing about the flame arrestor ... When we go back I'll have two of them with some mods to place on the TR. I think they'll actually help the air flow to the carb and help the signal. The engine is pulling between 1,150 - 1,250 cfm running the single 4. With the TR the demand on each carb is cut nearly in 1/2. The flame arrestors should be able to handle the flow of 650 - 750 cfm each and not be a restriction. We'll also have a couple of K&N filters on their velocity stacks to test as well.

Keep ya posted.

Have a great 2021 boating season ...

Sleeper CP



Bob would have loved this shit ..... I still regret the fact that I didn't drive up to LA for his Celebration of Life service. .....

I do miss him much, for a person I never met in person. Godspeed GN7... I hope you're making some sweet noise out there somewhere.

All the best my friend,

Sleeper CP
Jon
 
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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Single 4 dyno pull:

Edit:
Try this link..

Enlarge the screen and you can see the vac reading lower screen second from the left.

Edit:

Tunnel Ram dyno pull:

Edit:

If you click on the top of the video above it will take you to the link with the TR run.
 

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Village Idiot
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Great write up! This is the kind of stuff we need to keep us all driven towards improvements. Thanks and I look forward to your next posts about this.

As a side note, can you take a picture of the electric vacuum pump? We run one on our dyno but have never had a chance to do any good ABA testing with and without it. Always have other stuff we are trying to chase when making pulls.

Paul
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)


98 Ford Taurus smog pump. In a static condition they pulled 3.8- 4" Vac. In the dynamic condition it was able to keep a negative 1.7" running.

If the videos are playing ( they open on my lap top but not my I-phone) the video of the single 4 run the vac measurement is the second from the left on the lower screen. It never gets higher than 1.7" vac.
It's to the left of the oil psi on this sheet:


I hooked them up in tandem at first with the stronger of the two pulling thru the weaker. It didn't take long to kill the first pump we were pulling thru. In a tandem situation I was able to pull 6" from my test tank at home:



After the dyno runs we did a leak down on the dyno before we pulled it off. The "quick and dirty" hone job is leaking an average of 7%. So for the little pump to keep 1.7" vac it's doing pretty well. I read somewhere that they are only rated at 5 cfm. The two little pumps generated more vac on my test tank than did a 6.5hp shop vac.

I've read that if you're going to use one for any period of time you need to run an oil separator in-front of it and pull the foam out of the unit.

Let me know if the videos are playing for you. If not I'll try another link.

Thanks
 

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Nice build and have enjoyed your testing thru the years.
Why did you stop the pull in the tunnel ram test at 7400? She was still pulling hard.
 

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Village Idiot
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that is the same one I have. The pumps go in a bunch of different manufacturers but the plastic parts are vehicle specific. I have been through a couple. I need a better oil separator. Again, thanks for posting and the pics!

Paul
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
that is the same one I have. The pumps go in a bunch of different manufacturers but the plastic parts are vehicle specific. I have been through a couple. I need a better oil separator. Again, thanks for posting and the pics!

Paul
the oil separator and remove the foam should help it last.
 
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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #8
Nice build and have enjoyed your testing thru the years.
Why did you stop the pull in the tunnel ram test at 7400? She was still pulling hard.
A couple reasons:

In the jet boat it won't see over 7,200.

With the 275* int duration we were a bit surprised it was still climbing. We could have advanced the cam ( belt drive on the engine) but seeing that the engine was going positive crankcase psi above 6,800 we figured we were down 10 hp from if the Vac pump were pulling -1.8" ( that's what we saw between runs 8-9-10)

Also, we ran into some intake tuning issues that we couldn't fix in this dyno visit. At that point I knew we'd be headed back with the GZ vac pump installed and some intake mods.

When we go back I probably will take it to 7,600 to see what it does, and then we'll advance the cam.

This combo was put back together with a .043 stainless top ring, 1/16 napier second, and a 10 lbs oil ring. I think somewhere between 9"- 12" Vac is going to pay some dividends for us.
 

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Village Idiot
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My hats off to you for putting together a SOLID piece. Looking forward to hearing more positive results. Again, thanks for sharing all the details.

I just saw the pictures (as I could not see them well on my phone earlier today) and saw that you were running two in series. Genius! I am only running one and never saw the numbers, now it makes sense. I may have to get a second one and do just like you did. Thanks for the pics and helping to fuel my ideas.

Paul
 

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Isn't this a nitrous engine? Just a thought.. Might want to leave cam where it's at and let it ride the pump at higher rpm. Easier on the bottom end.
Oil seperators. Had good luck with the Mercedes ones with boost.
At your level of power/ bore and stroke, why not dry sump it? Get all the vac you need reliably and oil control plus other benifits.
 

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Some guy
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Crazy brake specific number!

For your flame arrestor test, what about making a funnel shaped base? Or a funnel type base for a tunnel ram type flame arrestor? GT Performance used to make some up with a very open wire mesh, or you could pull a couple of wraps out of the ones you have?
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #12
My hats off to you for putting together a SOLID piece. Looking forward to hearing more positive results. Again, thanks for sharing all the details.

I just saw the pictures (as I could not see them well on my phone earlier today) and saw that you were running two in series. Genius! I am only running one and never saw the numbers, now it makes sense. I may have to get a second one and do just like you did. Thanks for the pics and helping to fuel my ideas.

Paul
I thought it was "genius" too. The stronger pump, pulling thru the other pump, collapsed the outer rubber cover and that pump over-heated and killed it on the 5th dyno pull. When the two were running it was pulling a strong -2" Vac. With the single strong pump it could maintain -1.7" - 1.8".

You'll probably never find two pumps that will pull exactly the same the stronger will overpower the lessor pump. I ended up testing 3 of those pumps. The larger of the 3 (largest body that seemed to move the most air, as measured by blowing against my hand) actually generated the least amount of vacuum when hooked up to the test tank.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Crazy brake specific number!

For your flame arrestor test, what about making a funnel shaped base? Or a funnel type base for a tunnel ram type flame arrestor? GT Performance used to make some up with a very open wire mesh, or you could pull a couple of wraps out of the ones you have?
I'm going to get a couple of dominator short air bells to attach the flame arrestors to. I think that should work well.

On the brake specific .... We could have tuned some more on the single 4 and got it better, but it's interesting to see that the TR was using less fuel per hr making it's 970hp than the single 4 was using making 940hp. When you account for the extra 10 hp the single was benefiting from with the Vac pump, there's another 10 hp gain the TR set-up could have been showing. The BSFC could have been even better.

I've had a single 1,050 since '91 (originally tuned by Barry Grant ) since then John at C & J has had it a couple of times. It's been the most efficient carb I have ever seen. This is a dyno sheet from Westech in 2011:


Steve told me " if you ever want to sell this carb call me first"

I sent that carb along with another 1,050 body I had to C & J and told John to make a matching set. He has all the specs written down if anyone wants to call him and order a carb ( just don't forget to send me a finders fee ) ;)
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Isn't this a nitrous engine? Just a thought.. Might want to leave cam where it's at and let it ride the pump at higher rpm. Easier on the bottom end.
Oil seperators. Had good luck with the Mercedes ones with boost.
At your level of power/ bore and stroke, why not dry sump it? Get all the vac you need reliably and oil control plus other benifits.
This engine is going to run a bit less nitrous than in the past. Max of a 200 shot.

I'm having a hard enough time making room for the Vac pump ... a dry sump system would cause me to have FITS ... ;)
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #15
Crazy brake specific number!

For your flame arrestor test, what about making a funnel shaped base? Or a funnel type base for a tunnel ram type flame arrestor? GT Performance used to make some up with a very open wire mesh, or you could pull a couple of wraps out of the ones you have?
This is what I was thinking, but these are back-ordered until May 28th. I need to find a different supplier:



K&N might make something that would work, but I do like this part.
 

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Some guy
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This is what I was thinking, but these are back-ordered until May 28th. I need to find a different supplier:



K&N might make something that would work, but I do like this part.
See if it's in stock here maybe? Quick Fuel Carburetor Air Bells 200-2QFT

Or see if Brule has a matched set of the salad bowls you can test!
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #18

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On the flame arrestor, can't you find a larger one and remove the inner screen for more airflow? That one seems small for what your doing.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #20
I think I've seem a 5" flame arrestor in years past.

If I have sometime I'll look for them and see what they look like and cost.
 
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