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Discussion Starter #1
need to tear it down and see all whats been hurt but as of now #7 rod in my 460+.060 is in two slightly bent pieces. now i am on the fence of a stroker, or a quick r and r so i can still have the season. few questions about what i want

would it be beneficial to install half ,3/4/ or full grove bearings over the stock style? does anyone have part numbers for such? i doubt there could be too much oil at 5000+ RPM

if i go stroker would longevity be better with the longer rod and higher pin, to lessen side load on the piston skirt and wrist pin? the rotating assemblies i have found do not give different rod lengths and pin locations on the pistons.
or do these motors have enough wall height that a 4.5 stroke doesnt affect the life? i only know small block chevys so this is all new to me.

also how would i be able to determine if either my c9 or d1 block could be taken to +.080? my c9 is +.060 and my d1 is at +.030 with heavy backyard for a whole year rust
 

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need to tear it down and see all whats been hurt but as of now #7 rod in my 460+.060 is in two slightly bent pieces. now i am on the fence of a stroker, or a quick r and r so i can still have the season. few questions about what i want

would it be beneficial to install half ,3/4/ or full grove bearings over the stock style? does anyone have part numbers for such? i doubt there could be too much oil at 5000+ RPM

if i go stroker would longevity be better with the longer rod and higher pin, to lessen side load on the piston skirt and wrist pin? the rotating assemblies i have found do not give different rod lengths and pin locations on the pistons.
or do these motors have enough wall height that a 4.5 stroke doesnt affect the life? i only know small block chevys so this is all new to me.

also how would i be able to determine if either my c9 or d1 block could be taken to +.080? my c9 is +.060 and my d1 is at +.030 with heavy backyard for a whole year rust
First question, HELL NO!!!! This isn't the 50's
Second, NO



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Discussion Starter #3
First question, HELL NO!!!! This isn't the 50's
Second, NO
just a bit confused on the answer here. there are 3 questions. i would assume the first answer is for the bearing question. the second answer though?
 

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Joe, as far as bearings go there are many theories regarding the groove in a bearing. Testing from yester years proved that a full groove bearing greatly increased the pressure on the remaining bearing surface where a 1/2 groove provided a much better bearing load. Now there are many different ideas as to the 1/2 VS. 3/4 grooves. I am a fan of the 1/2 as it provides a better bearing surface and that I have never had an issue before due to them. I have a brother that went with the 3/4 groove as he wanted to increase the oil to the rods on his engine. The engine runs fine and has not shown any issues either. I just prefer my way and he his.

If there is an inherent issue with oiling in a certain style of engine that I were building and the accepted fix was longer grooves then I just might do it.

Paul
 

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I subscribe to the theory that a 1/2 groove or a 3/4 groove bearing is better than full groove as the 1/2-3/4 provides the hydrodynamic pumping action to the rod bearings that is lost with a full groove main bearing. The extra surface area provided by the 1/2-3/4 is an extra benefit as well. IMO a full groove bearing will require higher oil pressure to provide adaquate oiling to the rods at high rpm. Cross drilled cranks lose the oil's hydrodynamics as would a full groove bearing, not to speak of the weakining of the crank the extra oil holes create.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Regarding the rod length. No need to reinvent the wheel when buy a rotoator stroker kit. The rod is much less important than many think.

LINK: Rod thread
that was an intense read. i do see valid points all over the place. it does seem that in almost all generalizations that were offered the ratios were application specific and there is far too many variables to have a magic number rod. the farther it went along and the more engine masters came with thoughts, the harder it was for my novice to follow along.

the only thing that rang consistent is that the tdc and bdc dwell would be a different. i dont see how this could be since the difference from center would be consistant, the rod length would offer acceleration equally both up and down to 90deg off and then be exactly inverse for the next 90deg. how is the bottom different from the top?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Update

tore the top half off and feel now that reversion had a part to play in my failure. the only cylinder that had rust in it was the one that failed. the water manifold to the headers had 5 and 8 closed with debris and 6 was only partially open. that would indicate to me that all the water was going into the exhaust, and even though it was mist coming out the end, it was all collected inside one port. the bassett valve i had used was new and i tested it for pressure. it would open at 7.2lbs and close at 6.5lbs. with this it never occurred to me to check water flow out of the water exhaust manifold. the piston hit the head hard enough to bend one of the push rods but it doesnt look as if it damaged the valve seat. ill check that later. there is a small nick in the valves and the piston will need to be replaced along with the connecting rod and push rod. i feel having a bit of water in that one cylinder made for a higher compression and worked the bearing harder till failure was evident.

any thoughts supporting or contradicting this theory?
 

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I doubt that the clogged water manifold led to this. You can only push so much water thru the jet in tube. It may have added a little. Regardless, you hydrauliced the thing, maybe bent the rod first, and it broke shortly after, or it snapped right off. The hydraulicing took out the bearing for sure.
The piston was most likely at the top when the rod snapped, leaving the piston at or near TDC and the exhaust valve opened hitting it and bending the PR.
Thats my 2 cents.

But the water will enter the cylinder regardless if the water flow was correct or not if the exhaust valve wasn't sealing properly before hand.
LINK: Water in my oil



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Discussion Starter #10
gn7 thanks for taking the time to link me to similar problems. its really helpful and as soon as i read a pro answer a "newb" question pops into my head. next post similar question is asked and next post its answered. it is very helpful. again thank you

with that last read i am headed out to check my springs and valve seals, especially on the exhaust side. reports upon completion
 

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gn7 thanks for taking the time to link me to similar problems. its really helpful and as soon as i read a pro answer a "newb" question pops into my head. next post similar question is asked and next post its answered. it is very helpful. again thank you

with that last read i am headed out to check my springs and valve seals, especially on the exhaust side. reports upon completion
Valve seals have nothing to do with how well the valve itself seals the cylinder, or if water enters the cylinder thru the exhaust valve on the intake stroke. They only control oil being drawn into the cylinder.
His problem was caused by a broken valve spring, but a badly sealing valve can cause the same thing. Just much worse if the spring is broken or the valve head is burnt away some.
You could have simply blown a head gasket to cause your problem.



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Bob, Maybe he needs a little better parts in there to start with..just a thought.
good parts are always nice. But I think the water did this thing in. He is only spinning it 5000. Not everything needs a Sonny Bryant crank and Carrillo rods.:D

I would say a set of forged pistons are definitly in his future. From there it will depend on the HP he plans on making.



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Discussion Starter #14
sorry i meant the seal at the valve seat, not the actual valve seal. i flipped the head and 2 of the 4 intake leak a drop every 12-15 seconds. none of the exhaust on the head in question leak
i know this is not the best way to test this, but the only way i have means to at this time of night
 

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I agree with GN-7 on this deal. the best parts in the world will fail in a hydraulic situation. At first glance I thought over spin and shit happened but the water tells another story. Looking at the rod and the break kinda tells me it was a compression (or pretzel) on the rod more than an over-rev. I would be more concerned as to why it filled a cylinder full of water more than how to fix it FIRST. M
 

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Discussion Starter #16
the pistons i am running are marked l2404 .060. i couldnt find if they are trw or speed pro as there is no other markings on them. the engine shop guy asked if there was a checker pattern on the inside of the piston or not. he said all cast pistons are checkered and usually forged ones are not. mine are not but thats only one mans thoughts on how to ID them
 

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the pistons i am running are marked l2404 .060. i couldnt find if they are trw or speed pro as there is no other markings on them. the engine shop guy asked if there was a checker pattern on the inside of the piston or not. he said all cast pistons are checkered and usually forged ones are not. mine are not but thats only one mans thoughts on how to ID them
They are forged. If the exhausts didn't have an obvious lead with you "test" I would say you either blew a head gasket, or you are correct and it entered thru the exhaust due to too much water in that tube. But water is what did the damage.



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I agree with GN-7 on this deal. the best parts in the world will fail in a hydraulic situation. At first glance I thought over spin and shit happened but the water tells another story. Looking at the rod and the break kinda tells me it was a compression (or pretzel) on the rod more than an over-rev. I would be more concerned as to why it filled a cylinder full of water more than how to fix it FIRST. M
Yes Mark, the shape of the rod is a dead give away. But believe it or not, this rod was due to hydraulic as well, and it was pulled apart. Of course in the case the piston blew off and the piston wedged sideways in the cylinder. When the it came time to decend, the piston wedged in the cylinder won.
IMG00224-20120211-1541.jpg



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Discussion Starter #19
looked at both sides of both head gaskets with the mag lens. there was a gasket failure at the lower water ports near the failed cylinder but the blow out was out to the air, not in toward the hole. also there was no water in the oil. that failure may been a contributor but didnt show that it was a direct failure into the hole. anything else to check while im looking. since the leaks are slow and small could i use some lapping compound to reseat these. being d3s i would like to save up for a better set of heads opposed to have a valve job done on these. mostly since my comp ratio is around 8.1-8.3.
 

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Yes Mark, the shape of the rod is a dead give away. But believe it or not, this rod was due to hydraulic as well, and it was pulled apart. Of course in the case the piston blew off and the piston wedged sideways in the cylinder. When the it came time to decend, the piston wedged in the cylinder won.
View attachment 161683
Alittle different scenario and I would imagine the oil drained like a milkshake. Not the case with Joe's boat. Yes I agree that piston would lodge in the bore as bad as it came apart. Probably at a much higher rpm and "maybe" ran alittle longer. Both still painful in the wallet! I just wonder how and where water poured out on tear down. Valley looked good to me and I would bet that either a stuck t-valve on the headers or a problem in the intake wet that motor so bad??? The intake port makes me wonder????
 
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