[jdekruyf]

Anyone have any idea why the rod bolts would be torqued to 95lbs? Thought I had spun a bearing so while checking them I first checked the build sheet from Clay Smith which said 95lbs with oil and checked it with the torque wrench and they were tight at 95. Eagle rods says to torque em at 75. Should I follow the build sheet or invest in new bolts due to stretch and follow eagle rods specs? They are arp 2000's with the 7/16 head and 7/16 thread.

 

[gn7]

Eagle's/ARP recommendation is based on using EP3/Moly/ARP Ultra Lube of similar lube. Oil will tend to raise the torque required to hit desired stretch.
95lbs seems excessive and more than I have ever torqued a 2000 bolt.

Measuring the breakaway torque when disassembling is next to useless.



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[ol guy]

Eagle's/ARP recommendation is based on using EP3/Moly/ARP Ultra Lube of similar lube. Oil will tend to raise the torque required to hit desired stretch.
95lbs seems excessive and more than I have ever torqued a 2000 bolt.

Measuring the breakaway torque when disassembling is next to useless.

VERY much agreed! stick to specs and I don't care what bolt or stud nut combo you use! As Bob said break away reading means dick. If you want to get a good reading go to another rod and check torque used. then when you find they are above spec, replace all stud-nut combo and re-torque to spec and enjoy! Or do what I would do and check the whole mas for crush factor. My 2 cents.

 

[BDMarine]

There are no nuts on those rod bolts.

I agree it seems excessive. You can check by measuring the OAL of each bolt using a pin mic in the dimples at each end of the rod bolt. Keep them in order as you remove them. Then measure and compare the OAL. If the stretch was within specs, they should be fine. Make sure you measure stretch when you reassemble. As Bob said, stretch and torque vary greatly with different lubricants.

 

[gn7]

There are no nuts on those rod bolts.

I agree it seems excessive. You can check by measuring the OAL of each bolt using a pin mic in the dimples at each end of the rod bolt. Keep them in order as you remove them. Then measure and compare the OAL. If the stretch was within specs, they should be fine. Make sure you measure stretch when you reassemble. As Bob said, stretch and torque vary greatly with different lubricants.

If he hasn't already pulled them all. If he has even a couple rods untouched, he could still get a stretched measurement and compare it to a the free length.
He could use a standard bolt stretch gauge if he measures the stretched length and the free length on bolt at a time.



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[jdekruyf]

There are no nuts on those rod bolts.

I agree it seems excessive. You can check by measuring the OAL of each bolt using a pin mic in the dimples at each end of the rod bolt. Keep them in order as you remove them. Then measure and compare the OAL. If the stretch was within specs, they should be fine. Make sure you measure stretch when you reassemble. As Bob said, stretch and torque vary greatly with different lubricants.

If he hasn't already pulled them all. If he has even a couple rods untouched, he could still get a stretched measurement and compare it to a the free length.
He could use a standard bolt stretch gauge if he measures the stretched length and the free length on bolt at a time.

Yup. Already pulled them all unfortunately. What would you guys do in this case? Safe side and get new bolts?

Old guy - what do you mean by going to another rod and checking its torque? Wouldn't that be the same as the breakaway torque? Because that's exactly what I did was go in 5 lb increments starting at 75 and worked up to 95 with the wrench set to tighten. Or do I have the breakaway torque definition backwards?

 

[ol guy]

Yup. Already pulled them all unfortunately. What would you guys do in this case? Safe side and get new bolts?

Old guy - what do you mean by going to another rod and checking its torque? Wouldn't that be the same as the breakaway torque? Because that's exactly what I did was go in 5 lb increments starting at 75 and worked up to 95 with the wrench set to tighten. Or do I have the breakaway torque definition backwards?

Break-away is what it takes to loosen the bolt. If you stepped up to 95 to get any response from the bolt on a tighten up then I would say it was over torqued OR a thread locker was used? I did not assemble or was there at the time so I can not say for sure! But as you stated in the first part of this response "new bolts" I don't think its needed but I would have the rod journal diameter checked. Also I don't know what rpm you are spinning or how long those bolts have been in use. Better safe than sorry. IMO

 

[jdekruyf]

Break-away is what it takes to loosen the bolt. If you stepped up to 95 to get any response from the bolt on a tighten up then I would say it was over torqued OR a thread locker was used? I did not assemble or was there at the time so I can not say for sure! But as you stated in the first part of this response "new bolts" I don't think its needed but I would have the rod journal diameter checked. Also I don't know what rpm you are spinning or how long those bolts have been in use. Better safe than sorry. IMO

I was under the impression that breakaway is the force required to "break" the head loose, going in the same direction that was originally applied or basically the torque point that it will restart the fastener going in a tightening direction. I understand that this would also be greater than the original torque number as well.

I stepped up to 95 and got a click and did not get any response as I did not want to take a chance in over tightening the bolt and stretching it further.

Just thought i'd ask on here just to double check because that number seemed high but maybe the amount of oil they used played a part in getting the right stretch with that torque number.

I'll be sure to go over the stretch upon re-assembly using oil and make sure they are within spec. The bolts only have about an hour of actual run time and 30 minutes or so of idling on the trailer and the run time the day I bought the engine...one full 2 day river trip and the other two trips were cut short after about 20 minutes of run time. Engine has spun up to 68-6900 rpm.

 

[Infomaniac]

95 is too much.

75 about right with moly lube.

 

[BDMarine]

Not something you want to fail. If there is any question, replace them.

 

[BDMarine]

If he hasn't already pulled them all. If he has even a couple rods untouched, he could still get a stretched measurement and compare it to a the free length.
He could use a standard bolt stretch gauge if he measures the stretched length and the free length on bolt at a time.

True. My problem is that the 2000 bolts in Eagle rods are not consistent in length. So if he can only checks a couple, those couple are the only ones I would trust. I have seen them vary as much as .007

 

[jdekruyf]

The more research I do, it seems there have been quite a few cases of needing to torque these specifc bolts upwards of 90 ft lbs to get the desired stretch using oil.

What would you guys do in my shoes? Re-assemble with oil and check the stretch and call it good or buy new and chart the stretch myself off of brand new bolts? I didn't have the luxury of assembling it the first time and getting all the before and after measurements.

Like stated earlier, these bolts only have about an hours worth of run time and a handful of hard passes and it was initially assembled by Clay Smith and torqued to 95 lbs per the build sheet, and in my eyes, Clay Smith is a VERY reputable shop and i'd trust them.

 

[BDMarine]

Not something you want to fail. If there is any question, replace them.

<-- This

Start fresh, use the ARP lube, and stretch to specs.

 

[gn7]

True. My problem is that the 2000 bolts in Eagle rods are not consistent in length. So if he can only checks a couple, those couple are the only ones I would trust. I have seen them vary as much as .007

I wasn't suggesting he compare bolts to each other, but the individual bolt's installed stretch length to its free length, of each bolt as he removed them.
What I was getting at is that if they torqued all the bolts to 95, and he was able to check 1/2 of them and they didn't take a set from being over torqued, then it stands to reason none of them were over torqued.

He measures a torqued bolt at 2.006 and its free length is 2.000, odds are it wasn't over torqued. If its free length is only .002 shorter, it most likely took a set from over torqueing and its junk. Odds of over stretching only 4 or 5 bolts all at the same torque is pretty slim.

It is possible to determine if a bolt has been pulled past its yield by comparing stretch to torque required as you install them.

If it hits stretch length before it gets near the proper torque, the bolt is toast.

I just recently bought a SnapOn torque angle wrench and it makes it nice in qualifying a bolt. If you pull it to the proper angle without the required force, its JUNK.
Waaaay faster than a stretch gauge.

Its all really mute. He should probably replace them anyway.



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[Infomaniac]

Go to the web site of the rod manufacturer and follow what they said

 

[gn7]

Go to the web site of the rod manufacturer and follow what they said

Let me show you why what Infomaniac posted is so important. This table is from Callies/Compstar's website, for Compstar rods and ARP bolts.
The first 2 are 2000 bolts, the last one is a L19 bolt. Notice the torque value for BOTH the H and the HD I beam are different, but the stretch is the same. FOR THE SAME BOLT!!
What happens is, if you torque the 2000 bolt to 85 lbs in their H beam rod, the bolt doesn't necessarily stretch more, the ROD CRUSHES AND DISTORTS! It can't stand up to the clamping forces of that bolt torqued to the value. But the HD I beam is much beefier around the big and it can.

Look at the torque value of the L19 in the same HD I beam. 92 LBS!!! Look on Eagle's website for the same 2000 and L19 bolts. Its 75lbs (2000) and 79 lbs(L19). Its not that the L19 can't take more torque, its that the ROD CAN'T.
But the chart below shows that the 2000 bolt is capable of 85 WITH ARP LUBE! compared to oil used in the OP's Eagles. 10 additional LBS for oil is not uncommon.

What does all this mean. The 2000 bolt can take 85 lbs IF it results in a .005-.006 stretch. Or maybe even 95 with oil.

However, the rod might not! Eagle rods are not famous for keeping there shape under the torque Eagle recommends. I have measured Eagle bores out of the box, and after retorquing them, and the bore changes. I can imagine it would REALLY change if I over torqued the fastener.

The question is, was the fastener over stretched by pulling it to 95 with oil? Or did the bore simply get racked?

Bottom line, I would replace the bolts, check the big end for roundness, AND INSTALL THE NEW BOLTS TO 79-80LBS WITH ARP LUBE.

One last thing. NOT ALL 2000 AND L19 ARP bolts are created equal. 2000 and L19 is only a material. The Callies bolts have a different cross section between the head and the threads. Eagles bolts have more of a undercut and stretch to length at a lower torque than others. THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT REASON YOU NEED TO KNOW THE BOLT AND THE ROD YOU ARE PLAYING WITH. What Eagles bolt and rod need is different than what Callies do, even with the same bolt a MATERIAL!



Big Block Chevy Applications:

Designation Style Thread Length Torque Stretch
BBC H-Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 75 ft lbs .005″-.006″
BBC HD I Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 85 ft lbs .005″-.006″
BBC HD L-19 I-Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 92 ft lbs .005″-.006″



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[BDMarine]

I wasn't suggesting he compare bolts to each other, but the individual bolt's installed stretch length to its free length, of each bolt as he removed them.
What I was getting at is that if they torqued all the bolts to 95, and he was able to check 1/2 of them and they didn't take a set from being over torqued, then it stands to reason none of them were over torqued.

He measures a torqued bolt at 2.006 and its free length is 2.000, odds are it wasn't over torqued. If its free length is only .002 shorter, it most likely took a set from over torqueing and its junk. Odds of over stretching only 4 or 5 bolts all at the same torque is pretty slim.

It is possible to determine if a bolt has been pulled past its yield by comparing stretch to torque required as you install them.

If it hits stretch length before it gets near the proper torque, the bolt is toast.

I just recently bought a SnapOn torque angle wrench and it makes it nice in qualifying a bolt. If you pull it to the proper angle without the required force, its JUNK.
Waaaay faster than a stretch gauge.

Its all really mute. He should probably replace them anyway.

Yes

Go to the web site of the rod manufacturer and follow what they said

Yes

Let me show you why what Infomaniac posted is so important. This table is from Callies/Compstar's website, for Compstar rods and ARP bolts.
The first 2 are 2000 bolts, the last one is a L19 bolt. Notice the torque value for BOTH the H and the HD I beam are different, but the stretch is the same. FOR THE SAME BOLT!!
What happens is, if you torque the 2000 bolt to 85 lbs in their H beam rod, the bolt doesn't necessarily stretch more, the ROD CRUSHES AND DISTORTS! It can't stand up to the clamping forces of that bolt torqued to the value. But the HD I beam is much beefier around the big and it can.

Look at the torque value of the L19 in the same HD I beam. 92 LBS!!! Look on Eagle's website for the same 2000 and L19 bolts. Its 75lbs (2000) and 79 lbs(L19). Its not that the L19 can't take more torque, its that the ROD CAN'T.
But the chart below shows that the 2000 bolt is capable of 85 WITH ARP LUBE! compared to oil used in the OP's Eagles. 10 additional LBS for oil is not uncommon.

What does all this mean. The 2000 bolt can take 85 lbs IF it results in a .005-.006 stretch. Or maybe even 95 with oil.

However, the rod might not! Eagle rods are not famous for keeping there shape under the torque Eagle recommends. I have measured Eagle bores out of the box, and after retorquing them, and the bore changes. I can imagine it would REALLY change if I over torqued the fastener.

The question is, was the fastener over stretched by pulling it to 95 with oil? Or did the bore simply get racked?

Bottom line, I would replace the bolts, check the big end for roundness, AND INSTALL THE NEW BOLTS TO 79-80LBS WITH ARP LUBE.

One last thing. NOT ALL 2000 AND L19 ARP bolts are created equal. 2000 and L19 is only a material. The Callies bolts have a different cross section between the head and the threads. Eagles bolts have more of a undercut and stretch to length at a lower torque than others. THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT REASON YOU NEED TO KNOW THE BOLT AND THE ROD YOU ARE PLAYING WITH. What Eagles bolt and rod need is different than what Callies do, even with the same bolt a MATERIAL!



Big Block Chevy Applications:

Designation Style Thread Length Torque Stretch
BBC H-Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 75 ft lbs .005″-.006″
BBC HD I Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 85 ft lbs .005″-.006″
BBC HD L-19 I-Beam 7/16-20 Thread 1.700″ 92 ft lbs .005″-.006″

And YES :wink2::wink2:

 

[jdekruyf]

Good info guys. Thanks

 

[scott foxwell]

I've had to torque ARP2000's close to 90 to get their required stretch with ARP's old lube. The new stuff (Ultra) requires even more tq. In fact, their recommended torque never gets the bolt close to their recommended stretch. Usually ~.002" short.
One thing you have to take into account when torquing to stretch is how much the rod material is compressing/deflecting vs. bolt stretch. A rod with better material will not require the same torque to stretch as a rod with less quality material.
Break away tq works in either direction...tighten or loosen. This is another reason to stretch bolts and not torque them. I do not step-torque rod bolts. I find what torque is required to get the amount of recommended stretch. I tighten the rod bolts with a speed handle as tight as I can (about 30-35 ft/lbs) and then in one smooth pull, go to full torque, and check. Usually takes 20-25 more ft/lbs from recommended on import rods. Then check the big end for round.

 

[Hass828]

I've had to torque ARP2000's close to 90 to get their required stretch with ARP's old lube. The new stuff (Ultra) requires even more tq. In fact, their recommended torque never gets the bolt close to their recommended stretch. Usually ~.002" short.
One thing you have to take into account when torquing to stretch is how much the rod material is compressing/deflecting vs. bolt stretch. A rod with better material will not require the same torque to stretch as a rod with less quality material.
Break away tq works in either direction...tighten or loosen. This is another reason to stretch bolts and not torque them. I do not step-torque rod bolts. I find what torque is required to get the amount of recommended stretch. I tighten the rod bolts with a speed handle as tight as I can (about 30-35 ft/lbs) and then in one smooth pull, go to full torque, and check. Usually takes 20-25 more ft/lbs from recommended on import rods. Then check the big end for round.

I have found the same. Usually falls well short of proper stretch when tq'ed to spec with either one of the lubes.
Makes me wonder how all of the back yard built assemblys stay together, because I have seen many-many of them put together with a cheap parts store TQ wrench, and the guy assembling it not even know what a stretch guage is. And I can all but guarantee you that the bolts weren't pulled to recommended stretch.:hmmm: