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Marine Organism
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Just Me
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This is
exacty why people that don't intend to use a weapon shouldn't have one.

From the link: “I told him to freeze and to drop his weapon,” McLean told Fox News. Instead, the robber took off – last seen running down the street from the store. “I watched him run down the street,” he said.

How does the bad guy run away without moving? Obviously he didn't drop the weapon, so what happened? I know, this want to be hero, didn't have it in him to pull the trigger when he was justified to. Fortunately for him, the bad guy didn't want to shoot anyone either. Otherwise there would have been two dead Autozoners. So dispite the fact that this guy had a weapon on store grounds which is strictly against company policy where he was at, he could have potentially escalated the situation into a homicide by pulling a weapon he wasn't prepared to use. To top it all off, rather than say he was glad the weapon was in the vehicle and he was fortunate enough to stop the guy, he says he would do the same thing again. Which to a company says; he broke the policy and the company lucked out that it didn't cost any lives, and he plans on breaking it again. What will the cost be the second time around?

If you work for a company that tells you this is the policy and you don't agree with the policy, you have three choices. Don't work there, work there and follow the policy, or work there and don't follow the policy at the risk of being fired. This guy chose option 3 and got the expected results. The guy is suspected of 30 roberies and zero murders. Had they given him the money what would have happened?

My opinion, what this guy gained in hero points by going back in, he lost by not following through. And since he violated company policy and publicly stated he would do it again, what option did he leave the company?
 

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Marine Organism
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yea, your right, I'm wrong. He's wrong. Happy now? I'm still not shopping the zone.
 

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Just Me
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4,107 Posts
Yea, your right, I'm wrong. He's wrong. Happy now? I'm still not shopping the zone.
I don't care if people think I'm right or wrong, so it doesn't really matter. I am just saying this guy is not the hero they are making him out to be. He choked and the guy got away. And what would you do if you were the company? Set a new precident so all your employees could break whatever rules they want to, if they are considered a good guy/gal?

The guy did ok, not great. Everyone lucked out and nobody got shot. But a company as big as AutoZone must maintain disciplin and have a reasonable expectation that thier employees are going to follow company policy.
 

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If you work for a company that tells you this is the policy and you don't agree with the policy, you have three choices. Don't work there, work there and follow the policy, or work there and don't follow the policy at the risk of being fired. This guy chose option 3 and got the expected results. The guy is suspected of 30 roberies and zero murders. Had they given him the money what would have happened?

My opinion, what this guy gained in hero points by going back in, he lost by not following through. And since he violated company policy and publicly stated he would do it again, what option did he leave the company?

X2

Fire his AZZ!!, This IS thier policy.

My wife worked at a local bank, a tweekin' armed robber came in -a gun was in her face- no telling how that tweeker would have reacted with somebody else with a firearm came in. The money aint worth your life.

Daniel
 

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Premium Member
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X2

Fire his AZZ!!, This IS thier policy.

My wife worked at a local bank, a tweekin' armed robber came in -a gun was in her face- no telling how that tweeker would have reacted with somebody else with a firearm came in. The money aint worth your life.

Daniel
So what happens when the tweaker starts pulling the trigger anyways? Not only your wife, but how many others die? Happens over and over again. But not in gun friendly states.

Back in '88 when i lived in the Seattle area, three guys walked into a bank in Enumclaw (a little town in horse country). One of the guys walked up to the teller and showed her his gun. She laughed and pointed behind him. His two buddies were spread eagle on the ground and he was eventually as well until the police got there. Most of the patrons of this small bank carried.
 

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So what happens when the tweaker starts pulling the trigger anyways? Not only your wife, but how many others die? Happens over and over again. But not in gun friendly states.

Back in '88 when i lived in the Seattle area, three guys walked into a bank in Enumclaw (a little town in horse country). One of the guys walked up to the teller and showed her his gun. She laughed and pointed behind him. His two buddies were spread eagle on the ground and he was eventually as well until the police got there. Most of the patrons of this small bank carried.
Arizona IS a very gun friendly state.
Its legal to carry in Arizona, but NOT in a bank, Gov't buildings, etc. Bar, yes, bank, no.
Lets prevoke the tweeker and see.
IF all the tellers were required to carry, then this would have be avoided. This is not policy. For the "patrons" in Enumclaw- was carrying in a bank legal? At that point whats the difference between "patron" and "perp"?
Bring in another from outside with a sidearm and chaos may ensue...

Daniel
 

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Marine Organism
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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I don't care if people think I'm right or wrong, so it doesn't really matter. I am just saying this guy is not the hero they are making him out to be. He choked and the guy got away. And what would you do if you were the company? Set a new precident so all your employees could break whatever rules they want to, if they are considered a good guy/gal?

The guy did ok, not great. Everyone lucked out and nobody got shot. But a company as big as AutoZone must maintain disciplin and have a reasonable expectation that thier employees are going to follow company policy.
So even if the thief didn't point his weapon at him, he should have shot him anyway? How would that go over? The thief ran, so I guess shoot him in the back? :confused: How do you know he was justified to shoot? Because the thief had his gun trained on the manager? So if Mclean had shot the thief then, how would that guarantee the managers safety?

You didn't make me realize something though, Auto Zone is anti-gun. So I'll refrain from trading with them. And I'll look up any other businesses' policies that I trade with. I know all the local businesses that I have a house charge account with allow concealed carry.
 

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Just Me
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4,107 Posts
Lets look at what could happen in this case. Now the perp got away. He is the but of the joke on every news channel and because he is not right in the head anyways, why else would he hold up 30+ places, gets it in his mind that he needs to do something to show them that he isn't the but of the joke. Gets upset, goes to another place to rob it, only this time, instead of putting them in the bathroom, he shoots everyone but the manager. Gets the money and shoots the manager too.

Or maybe the perp realizes he isn't that good at it, as this guy got the drop on him, and he is scared straight. Hmmmmmmm I wonder which is more likely.

I just want someone to explain how you have a gun pointing at someone and you tell them to freeze and drop the gun and they not only don't drop it, but they run out the back door. What did he do, forget to load the stupid thing? Maybe he thought the policy was no discharging of a firearm on AutoZone property.... Or as I originally posted, maybe he didn't have what it takes to use it, in which case he is lucky he isn't dead.
 

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Marine Organism
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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
So even if the thief didn't point his weapon at him, he should have shot him anyway? How would that go over? The thief ran, so I guess shoot him in the back? :confused: How do you know he was justified to shoot? Because the thief had his gun trained on the manager? So if Mclean had shot the thief then, how would that guarantee the managers safety?

You didn't make me realize something though, Auto Zone is anti-gun. So I'll refrain from trading with them. And I'll look up any other businesses' policies that I trade with. I know all the local businesses that I have a house charge account with allow concealed carry.
So what you are saying, the answer to my question is YES!!! Good luck with that!
 

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20 Tunnel
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Arizona IS a very gun friendly state.
Its legal to carry in Arizona, but NOT in a bank, Gov't buildings, etc. Bar, yes, bank, no.
Lets prevoke the tweeker and see.
IF all the tellers were required to carry, then this would have be avoided. This is not policy. For the "patrons" in Enumclaw- was carrying in a bank legal? At that point whats the difference between "patron" and "perp"?
Bring in another from outside with a sidearm and chaos may ensue...

Daniel
I keep hearing people saying no firearms in banks... but I can't find any laws prohibiting it..(unless they specifically request you not to, they can ask you to leave; but that applies to any business)
 

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Just Me
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4,107 Posts
So even if the thief didn't point his weapon at him, he should have shot him anyway? How would that go over? The thief ran, so I guess shoot him on the back? :confused: How do you know he was justified to shoot? Because the thief had his gun trained on the manager? So if Mclean had shot the thief then, how would that guarantee the managers safety?

You didn't make me realize something though, Auto Zone is anti-gun. So I'll refrain from trading with them. And I'll look up any other businesses' policies that I trade with. I know all the local businesses that I have a house charge account with allow concealed carry.
Since I was posting while you posted, let me answer this and explain it. Then you'll see it doesn't take luck as you posted last. The perp pulled a gun and forced the employees to complie. The perp using the weapon in the first place would cause a reasonable and prudent person to have grounds to be in fear of thier life or the life of others. This is the standard for the use of deadly force. Now the employee gets his weapon and gains the advantage and has the perp covered. He gives the perp instructions to insure his safety. If the perp complies there is no reason to shoot him. He has the upper hand. If the perp makes any deviation from the instructions given, that reasonable and prudent person is justified to use that deadly force to ensure that the perp doesn't regain the upper hand and use deadly force on him/her. In simple terms, you can't turn to run without moving the weapon, the weapon moves you shoot. And if you shoot, shoot to kill. And if he turned so fast that you didn't hit him head on, it proves that he was not following instructions and you shot out of self defense. You don't know what the perp is capable of. What if he was turning to kick your weapon from your hand? What if he was spinning and coming all the way around to shoot you? He moves, you shoot. It is really that simple.

So what you are saying, the answer to my question is YES!!! Good luck with that!
As I said, if you know what you are doing and willing to use the weapon you are carrying you don't need luck to stay legally correct. Unless you are white and the perp is black and it's an election year. Oh wait, that works out eventually too, it just takes a while. In this case thank God that niether gunman was committed to his cause.

And you still haven't answered: what is the company supposed to do when an employee breaks a rule and publicly says he'll do it again? Especially if it puts the company at risk that when it doesn't work the next time, that someone could wind up dead?

AutoZone is not anti-gun. They do not want thier employees doing things that could result in the company being sued for the employee's actions. And since you can't mandate that only mature employees with common sense may have weapons on the premises, they don't allow any employees to have them. Customers are welcome to carry in any store I've been in.
 

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COHETE ROJO
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219 Posts
MY employees own guns and i own guns, I have 9mm close to me at all times, my company policy is to not allow my employees to bring their guns into MY business, I'am pro gun, but also it's my right to not allow guns on MY property, like an extension of my home.
 

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Marine Organism
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tell you want snoc, I'm done, you win (again). I may as well be arguing religion with steelcomp. :rolleyes: You guys are alike as in you just cannot be wrong! :bangmyhead:

Yes AZ has a right to fire the guy. That doesn't change what happened. AND that doesn't change my opinion of AZ or any other private businesses that are anti-gun.

Like I said, you shoot him with out him aiming his weapon at you, and you're going to have problems. I know you don't believe it, and hope it never happens to you, but in case it does, good luck. You'll need it!
 

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'Freeze and drop your weapon' (when it was pointed at the manager) I guess mclean should have said 'freeze and drop your weapon' OR get the fuck out of here....either way the fact that he had a weapon in his hand gave him instant control over the situation and the fact that he is trained military i have no doubt that had the bad guy done anything other than what what he did mclean would have shot him.

In case you did not know it only leo are allowed to shoot bad guys in the back when they are running away...private citizens are only allowed to use deadly force if it's absolutely necessary to control the situation.


Having a weapon on store property is not against company policy...'leaving the store and returning with a weapon is.....

And while i understand the reasons for the company having a policy that prohibits their basic keyboard jockey type employee from packing a glock in his waistband while he is stocking shelves, having an employee that is ex military with skills that are at least equal to most leo is different.

I think their decision to fire mclean disrespects all those who have chosen to risk their lives to protect our great country.
Having a weapon and the skills to use it properly is an asset to all of us. I think all ex-military should be allowed to carry...Given the choice i would trust the skills of a combat veteran over leo any day.

As for autozone....i just ditched their number from my phone and i won't be giving them any of my money unless they make the appropriate exception to company policy and reinstate
Mclean.....with back pay




This is
exacty why people that don't intend to use a weapon shouldn't have one.

From the link: “I told him to freeze and to drop his weapon,” McLean told Fox News. Instead, the robber took off – last seen running down the street from the store. “I watched him run down the street,” he said.

How does the bad guy run away without moving? Obviously he didn't drop the weapon, so what happened? I know, this want to be hero, didn't have it in him to pull the trigger when he was justified to. Fortunately for him, the bad guy didn't want to shoot anyone either. Otherwise there would have been two dead Autozoners. So dispite the fact that this guy had a weapon on store grounds which is strictly against company policy where he was at, he could have potentially escalated the situation into a homicide by pulling a weapon he wasn't prepared to use. To top it all off, rather than say he was glad the weapon was in the vehicle and he was fortunate enough to stop the guy, he says he would do the same thing again. Which to a company says; he broke the policy and the company lucked out that it didn't cost any lives, and he plans on breaking it again. What will the cost be the second time around?

If you work for a company that tells you this is the policy and you don't agree with the policy, you have three choices. Don't work there, work there and follow the policy, or work there and don't follow the policy at the risk of being fired. This guy chose option 3 and got the expected results. The guy is suspected of 30 roberies and zero murders. Had they given him the money what would have happened?

My opinion, what this guy gained in hero points by going back in, he lost by not following through. And since he violated company policy and publicly stated he would do it again, what option did he leave the company?
 

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Just Me
Joined
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4,107 Posts
Tell you want snoc, I'm done, you win (again). I may as well be arguing religion with steelcomp. :rolleyes: You guys are alike as in you just cannot be wrong! :bangmyhead:

Yes AZ has a right to fire the guy. That doesn't change what happened. AND that doesn't change my opinion of AZ or any other private businesses that are anti-gun.

Like I said, you shoot him with out him aiming his weapon at you, and you're going to have problems. I know you don't believe it, and hope it never happens to you, but in case it does, good luck. You'll need it!
It's not hard to be right when you pick three areas I know very well. I am trained in both military and law enforcement use of deadly force with 30 years in one and experience and a degree in the other. And I have worked for AutoZone from the employee level up to Store Management. So, yes I know what I'm talking about. And some pople know first hand how doing the right thing (legal thing) works out after doing so.

Escalation of force and the use of deadly force is something that is more than what ifs. It is more the what is of the moment. This guy stopped short of following through which could have put him in grave danger had the perp been more determined. And gratned we don't know all the facts, but based on what we do know; he should have had control of the situation from the discription given by his words. We know that somehow he lost that control and the bad guy got away. That isn't how it is trained in the military nor in law enforcement. So something didn't go quite right. That doesn't make the guy a bad person. I just don't hold the same regard I would have had he gotten it all textbook perfect and the perp been apprehended dead or alive.



SHBH, I need to go verify something and I'll reply to your post. But, for now AZ is the most military friendly company I've ever worked for. Don't let this one incident we don't have all the facts for, taint your opinioin.
 
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