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It has nothing to do with foreign auto companies.

The need for the proposed bailout is the fault of the big 3. What do you expect when they have run their respective companies into the grave?
 

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mo balls than $cents$
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It has nothing to do with foreign auto companies.

The need for the proposed bailout is the fault of the big 3. What do you expect when they have run their respective companies into the grave?
no shit, and if we give them the $$$, they'll do it again:mad: let em flounder, let the country heal and get better for it.
 

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no shit, and if we give them the $$$, they'll do it again:mad: let em flounder, let the country heal and get better for it.
BINGO

Only thorugh pain can valuable lessons be learned and retained. Pain will inevitably be the thing that might just pull the USA out of the crapper.

Taking drugs (i.e. bailout money) to soften the pain will keep the big-3 from dealing with their real problems
 

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30_Day_Diarrhea_Diet.com
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A different point of view- letter from a Ford Dealership

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.


Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.


We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins
 

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Lavey Me Alone
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1,417 Posts
The bailout is a loan with interest.

Those automakers shut down their production and went full service into serving this country during WWII. Producing jeeps, tanks, aircraft, and all the hardware that won the war. Regardless of how they got to the point they are at, they need our govt's help now, and IMO our govt can't afford to loose the ability to produce in large numbers the hardware that still wins large scale wars.

I'm no fan of govt getting into private business, and I'm against bailouts but last time the govt loaned an automaker money, it was paid back years early and with all the interest....so the govt could actually make money on the deal.

RTJas :D
 

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Registered
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The bailout is money the government is printing that it doesn't have and will need to be repaid by taxpayers.

There is not proof that any of the big-3 can repay this bailout. Its all speculation, projection, and guesswork.
 

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Lavey Me Alone
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Its all speculation, projection, and guesswork.
You certainly know loans and money better than me Dave. But that last line there about sums up the whole situation we're in all the way around....with automakers, banks, and future in general. Then you have to separate the people who are actually trying to help from the people who just trying to become wealthy for their own benefit, and the people we really need help from the people who are trying get something for nothing......bad times any way you cut it.

RTJas
 

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You certainly know loans and money better than me Dave. But that last line there about sums up the whole situation we're in all the way around....with automakers, banks, and future in general. Then you have to separate the people who are actually trying to help from the people who just trying to become wealthy for their own benefit, and the people we really need help from the people who are trying get something for nothing......bad times any way you cut it.

RTJas
Yup - incredibly bad times for sure - for everyone. This includes the wealthy. Just look at has happenend to Warren Buffet!

It is my opinion that the free market is the only way out of this mess. Gov't intervention will only make it worse and longer lasting.
 

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Registered
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The bailout is a loan with interest.

Those automakers shut down their production and went full service into serving this country during WWII. Producing jeeps, tanks, aircraft, and all the hardware that won the war. Regardless of how they got to the point they are at, they need our govt's help now, and IMO our govt can't afford to loose the ability to produce in large numbers the hardware that still wins large scale wars.

I'm no fan of govt getting into private business, and I'm against bailouts but last time the govt loaned an automaker money, it was paid back years early and with all the interest....so the govt could actually make money on the deal.

RTJas :D
:)devil
 

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Premium Member
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Bail Out

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.


Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.


We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

Thank you for bringing this article to our attention. This information should be plastered to the foreheads of the bone head congress we have and are stuck with . I can't stand the idea of a bunch of lame politicians telling a magor manufacture how they can improve there business when the politicians can't fix the problems they were elected to fix. I am a fustrated American !:)sphss
 

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The bailout is a loan with interest.

Those automakers shut down their production and went full service into serving this country during WWII. Producing jeeps, tanks, aircraft, and all the hardware that won the war. Regardless of how they got to the point they are at, they need our govt's help now, and IMO our govt can't afford to loose the ability to produce in large numbers the hardware that still wins large scale wars.

I'm no fan of govt getting into private business, and I'm against bailouts but last time the govt loaned an automaker money, it was paid back years early and with all the interest....so the govt could actually make money on the deal.

RTJas :D
The "interest" is at the government lending rate, which I believe is around 2%.
 

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adjones419
Joined
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1,064 Posts
The bailout is a loan with interest.

Those automakers shut down their production and went full service into serving this country during WWII. Producing jeeps, tanks, aircraft, and all the hardware that won the war. Regardless of how they got to the point they are at, they need our govt's help now, and IMO our govt can't afford to loose the ability to produce in large numbers the hardware that still wins large scale wars.

I'm no fan of govt getting into private business, and I'm against bailouts but last time the govt loaned an automaker money, it was paid back years early and with all the interest....so the govt could actually make money on the deal.

RTJas :D
Excellent post and the way I feel as well. I'm glad someone posted that e-mail. My cousin had sent it to me over the weekend, and he works in the Marketing department at Ford. Alan Mulally has done great things for Ford over the past 2 years, and they're starting to straighten up. GM needs to get rid of Wagoner and do the same thing.
 
G

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Fockin cowboys, shoot first then ask questions later. Let the big 3 die and our lives will be miserable for years to come. People just don't understand how many hundreds of thousands of people rely on the big 3 to survive. Take another 300-500k workers out of an already weak economy and then see what happens. You will be personally affected one way or another.

You import fans may just get your wish. But don't think Asia will be cutting you brand loyal fans any slack. Your next car or truck will cost 30-50% more when the big 3 are gone. Ask yourself what would you do if your major competition went out of business, lower prices? Yeah right. If you think they give a rats ass about you, your family, or America, you're sadly mistaken.

They subsidize and embrace their auto industry. We put up roadblocks on ours.

I am not a bailout supporter for the most part. But this should be a business decision, not one based on emotion or how much you hate American automobiles.

We can loan $15B now, or suffer a $100-200B hit to our economy if they fail.

The Chinese are anxiously awaiting our decision.
 

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28 Powerplay - HP500
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Yup - incredibly bad times for sure - for everyone. This includes the wealthy. Just look at has happenend to Warren Buffet!

It is my opinion that the free market is the only way out of this mess. Gov't intervention will only make it worse and longer lasting.

Except gov't intervention has screwed this whole industry up....CAFE is a huge costly debacle, along with some of the absurd emissions laws they are trying to implement seperately in different states, etc.

Combined with the strong support foreign competition gets from THEIR goverments (currency games, huge tarriffs, etc), please show me where there's truly a "free market" here????
 

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Wrong (not that I'm surprised on this subject).

It's 5% for 5 years, and 9% thereafter.
Do you mind my asking what your take is on Wagoner...do you think he is the guy for the job??

I have such mixed emotions on the actual bailout, I do drive american made cars and my husband works for Ford, not manufacturing...but previous to our current cars we owned majority GM cars in the past 20 years.



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