Performance Boats Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
390 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
What procedure do you use for copper head gaskets on an o-ringed block?

- I am thinking hit both sides with scotch brite
- Coat gasket with yamabond lightly on both sides
- Install and torque

Am I missing something? Is there something better to use than the yamabond?

Thanks in advance,
Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
First of all You say O-Ringed block, Do you have Receiver grooves in the head. If not you need to do That. So many machine shops only put an o-ring in the block and dont Match the heads to accept the o-ring, and what happens is the O-ring holds the head off the deck, which doesnt work any better than a Conventional Gasket. And actually will not seal Water at all. Now if that is done you need to Silicon Around all the water jackets top & bottom and you will have no Problems. You can use other methods, but they are hit & miss.
Good luck Jay
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Copper

First of all You say O-Ringed block, Do you have Receiver grooves in the head. If not you need to do That. So many machine shops only put an o-ring in the block and dont Match the heads to accept the o-ring, and what happens is the O-ring holds the head off the deck, which doesnt work any better than a Conventional Gasket. And actually will not seal Water at all. Now if that is done you need to Silicon Around all the water jackets top & bottom and you will have no Problems. You can use other methods, but they are hit & miss.
Good luck Jay
That is for sure......And don't forget to silicone the studs/bolts, or they too will seep water...I've tried copper 3 times on the PS motor, and ALL 3 times they leaked water into the engine.......I gave up and went to the Felpro blues and still sealed the water ports.........The o ring should not be a problem, they only stick up about .025/.030, and the copper gasket is plenty thick enough to allow that...I've used o ringed heads without a receiver groove in the block without any problems, and that was with the Felpro blues..........Ray
 

·
Bostick Racing Engines
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
First of all You say O-Ringed block, Do you have Receiver grooves in the head. If not you need to do That. So many machine shops only put an o-ring in the block and dont Match the heads to accept the o-ring, and what happens is the O-ring holds the head off the deck, which doesnt work any better than a Conventional Gasket. And actually will not seal Water at all. Now if that is done you need to Silicon Around all the water jackets top & bottom and you will have no Problems. You can use other methods, but they are hit & miss.
Good luck Jay
This method works the best from my experience... 5 years on set of copper SCE gaskets without leaks. 13:1 compression and 300hp worth of fogger. Only thing I would add is... pre seat the gasket and wire by assembling and torque the head with the gasket dry first... then reassemble with silicone and torque. Seems to allow for a better set on the o-ring rather than trying to squeeze the silicone and the o-ring at the same time... but thats just what has worked for me... others may find doing it all at one shot to be better for them.

I have heard the yamabond works well to... but never had luck with copper coat or hylamar... always find one little leaker somewhere.
 

·
It's good to be alive
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
Have ran blown (centrifigal) deal to 14# with the block o-ringed and no reciever grove in the head with SCE copper gasket no problem. ARP head studs. Use a whole can of coppercoat spray on the two gaskets (about 4 coats, let dry between coats). A LITTLE silicone around the water ports. Ran 4 seasons, went through the motor and ran another two.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
390 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for all the response. It is true there is no reciever groove in the head, so I was hopping the gaskets will just compress enough to work. I will try the copper coat and silicone idea and keep my fingers crossed.
 

·
Rollin With Fink
Joined
·
583 Posts
Thanks for all the response. It is true there is no reciever groove in the head, so I was hopping the gaskets will just compress enough to work. I will try the copper coat and silicone idea and keep my fingers crossed.

Or buy the SCE Titans.... No copper coat or silicone needed....
 

·
Distinguished Member
Joined
·
5,772 Posts
First of all You say O-Ringed block, Do you have Receiver grooves in the head. If not you need to do That. So many machine shops only put an o-ring in the block and dont Match the heads to accept the o-ring, and what happens is the O-ring holds the head off the deck, which doesnt work any better than a Conventional Gasket. And actually will not seal Water at all. Now if that is done you need to Silicon Around all the water jackets top & bottom and you will have no Problems. You can use other methods, but they are hit & miss.
Good luck Jay
I've never heard of o-ringing the head to recieve the o-ring, that's something new to me. All the copper head gaskets installations I've seen (including ours), just o-ringed the block. The o-ring doesn't hold the head off the block, it sets into the copper. That's how it seals the combustion properly. We always siliconed around the water openings... should have mentioned that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
I've never heard of o-ringing the head to recieve the o-ring, that's something new to me. All the copper head gaskets installations I've seen (including ours), just o-ringed the block. The o-ring doesn't hold the head off the block, it sets into the copper. That's how it seals the combustion properly. We always siliconed around the water openings... should have mentioned that.
The reason you never heard of it is because any Mom & Pop shop with a boring bar can put an O-ring in a block, but it takes a Sophistacated race shop to reciever groove the heads. So when you Push the .015-.020 O-ring into the Copper gasket where does .015-.020 worth of displaced copper gasket go? no where? Has to go some where, so it moves the gasket outwards in both directions until it reachs its full density load for the amount of torque applied. Then the remainder of the head which is not flat on the deck gets bent down around it, which will seal the combustion Chamber, somewhat, but no better than a good cometic or felpro gasket.
And with very little Crush on the rest of the head (Water Jackets). So if you put in a reciever groove to accept that displaced copper, the head will set perfectly flat, and you will have a captured Fire ring (O-ring) that is bullet proof, and water jackets with no voids in them.:)bulb

Sorry about the Rambling Had to set the record straight.
Jay
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,717 Posts
I thought that o-ring'n a block is old tech.? am i wrong in my thoughts???
one more question?...
Why could'nt you fill the o-ring with JB weald or something and seal up the area, then blade it during the cure time?
Once its hard, does it have a chance to come out and cause issues? then you would'nt have any o-right issues, would you?
Makes perfect sense to me?
Very curious to any response, cuz i am having a little block pressure issue and wanna know if this could be a resolve?
Thanks
Todd
 

·
Bostick Racing Engines
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
I thought that o-ring'n a block is old tech.? am i wrong in my thoughts???
one more question?...
Why could'nt you fill the o-ring with JB weald or something and seal up the area, then blade it during the cure time?
Once its hard, does it have a chance to come out and cause issues? then you would'nt have any o-right issues, would you?
Makes perfect sense to me?
Very curious to any response, cuz i am having a little block pressure issue and wanna know if this could be a resolve?
Thanks
Todd
I've seen people use copper wire to fill the o-ring and both filed and left sticking up to go back to regular type gaskets... even seen an old blown dealy-o have an o-ringed block with stainless wire and regular fel-pro gasket... but this was from back in the days before lockwire fel-pro's and way before cometic was the big deal... but old school and kinda sorta works isn't really the best way to go... unless that's what you got to work with.


The hot deal is o-ring head and reciever groove head with wider .010 deep groove to "lock" the displaced copper... absloutly sure fire way to go... no "leaking" of combustion sometimes found with just o-ringing the block... yup that black shadow looking stuff. Kind of a bit of a pain to do... but haven't had a single failure... so I think the effort is justified.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,278 Posts
SCE titans, I've always painted them with one light coat of high heat aluminum spray paint ( the cheap stuff) then put a very tiny film of high heat silicon around all of the water ports, block and head both, no problems in 13yrs and I have O-rings in the block and no reciever grooves. Have reused the gaskets up to three times. 17psi of boost from turbos and 400hp shot of NOS. But maybe I've just been a lucky dog for 13yrs. :p
I'm going to keep doing what works, good luck , my .02 Hass
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,288 Posts
I've been running a copper gasket , o-ringed block with un-modified heads for a few years(untill I just lost a cam) mine is super thick though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,034 Posts
Clark of formerly Forcell and Clark are/were the copper gasket guys. For years they were the only major guys making coper head gasket.
They say run a receiver groove. The ss wire pushes the copper up into the receiver groove. The max seal is at the 90 degree corners where the copper is pushed into the head receiver groove. Draw a picture of what it looks like form the side view. They also say to use silicone around the water holes only.
Now, does this mean not running receiver grooves is wrong? I have never run copper without cutting a receive groove. Any shop with a bridgrport and a boring head and a decent machinist can cut the grooves.
I would highly recommend running whatever is working for you.
For ME, o-rings, receiver grooves and a small dab of silicone (small, smeared on with my finger) around the water ports.
I would never personally o-ring a block for a guy if it didnt' have receiver grooves. Read personally. I know guys that do and are successful.
Wags
How is that for a PC answer. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
Clark of formerly Forcell and Clark are/were the copper gasket guys. For years they were the only major guys making coper head gasket.
They say run a receiver groove. The ss wire pushes the copper up into the receiver groove. The max seal is at the 90 degree corners where the copper is pushed into the head receiver groove. Draw a picture of what it looks like form the side view. They also say to use silicone around the water holes only.
Now, does this mean not running receiver grooves is wrong? I have never run copper without cutting a receive groove. Any shop with a bridgrport and a boring head and a decent machinist can cut the grooves.
I would highly recommend running whatever is working for you.
For ME, o-rings, receiver grooves and a small dab of silicone (small, smeared on with my finger) around the water ports.
I would never personally o-ring a block for a guy if it didnt' have receiver grooves. Read personally. I know guys that do and are successful.
Wags
How is that for a PC answer. :D
Amen;)
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
I thought that o-ring'n a block is old tech.? am i wrong in my thoughts???
one more question?...
Why could'nt you fill the o-ring with JB weald or something and seal up the area, then blade it during the cure time?
Once its hard, does it have a chance to come out and cause issues? then you would'nt have any o-right issues, would you?
Makes perfect sense to me?
Very curious to any response, cuz i am having a little block pressure issue and wanna know if this could be a resolve?
Thanks
Todd
Not necessarily "old tech" but there are some guys running blown alky dealas with lots of boost just running Cometics. The new MLS gaskets are definately a big improvement.
You don't have to worry about filling the groove. Lots of guys have run o ring grooves in blocks with no wire intentionally to help keep the gasket from shifting. I did this on my last 467 and there was never an issue. The gasket just formed nicely into the groove. It's sort of a reverse o-ring effect.
+1 on running wire with no reciever groove. It defeats the purpose. Putting the reciever groove in the head is a tricky operation, but it should be done. Wire can be run in the head or the block.
Anyone know about torquing copper gaskets from the outside in, in a reverse pattern from a conventional gaskaet?
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top