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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A few oil pan questions:

Old:



New:





So after a weld repair on a leaking bead by The Bostick I got the oil pan back on the engine, yet again. Checked for leaks this evening .....all is well so it will get dropped back in the boat this week: A clean shop vac set on reverse and a bottle of soap and water works just great checking for leaks after putting the pan back on. Passed inspection


Before I put the new pan back on the engine I put the two pans side by side and took some measurements and pictures. We'll see if I can get this thing to maintain oil pressure. After the last trip with the new pump and pick-up the oil psi was better than before. It would hold 56-58 psi at 4,000 at 225* it would that to 4,500 and then it would take a dive when I stood on it.

Talked to a couple friends at the river, including Bostick, they all said "pull a couple qrts out of it, sounds like a windage issue, and see what happens" It had the oil leak on Sunday morning, so I never got around to doing it ( pulling two qrts) to see what it would do.

I found the dyno sheet from when the engine was at Westech and it had great oil psi during all the dyno pulls. I called Steve and talked to him about it and he said " pull two quarts of oil from it" Well when it was on the dyno we had 8 qrts in the pan ( 12 qrt pan) in the boat I've been running 10 qrts like I always did with the Dooley's. Steve reminded me to set the pan on the floor at 4-5* as it would sit in the boat and mark the dip-stick. He also said he see's this all the time with big oil pans. There are lots of 12 qrt pans out there running around with 8-9 qrts in them. So I've re-marked the dip-stick at 7 qrts and 8 qrts. I've going to start with 7 in the pan, 9 total in the system vs what I use to run for a total of 12 qrts and see what happens. Then I'll add a qrt and see what happens at 8 qrts. I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume.

What we saw on the dyno with 8 qrts of 15-50 Mobil 1:


What do you think is happening in this pan that it can't run with 10 qrts in it like I ran in the Dooley's? Actually I'm assuming running just 7 or 8 qrts will work, if it doesn't the pan will come off an sit on the shelf. I'll know in a couple of weeks. The newer pan would seem to have more/better features to control the oil, both pans have a lip at the back of the pan to keep the oil from sloshing up the back under hard acceleration, the new pan has more volume with the kick-out and is approximately 3" wider.
this has truly been a case of " it if isn't broke don't fix it" for me. Just one more thing and I'm done and back to using the old pan. hopefully the reduction in oil volume will fix the pressure issue.

Thoughts ??? and keep it constructive please.
I'll post a few more pictures of the internals tomorrow.

S CP

Jon
 

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steelcomp was here
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Jon,
Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?
Never mind...we're looking at the rear of the pans, correct? (I hope so)
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #3
Jon,
Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?

Oh come on Scott,

You should know what side of the pan rail has the kick-out for the oil pump on a big block Ford.
Both pans are facing the same direction. Rear of pan is closest to the camera. bottom pic of steel pan you can see the trap door at the rear of pan.

Keep in mind the solid tray in the steel pan bolts to the main caps

Jon
 

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Bostick Racing Engines
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Jon,
Which is the front and rear on the steel pan?
Never mind...we're looking at the rear of the pans, correct? (I hope so)
Since it's a Ford... I'd assume the part closest is the rear and part further away is the front... just based on the shape of the pan rails and what remains of the original factory pan.
 

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Sleeper,

You made a funny comment and I wanted to, well, make a comment :)eh:)

You said "I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume." Really? :hmmm:

If the oil is being aerated by windage it is turning to foam anyways, which is why you are losing OP, foaming oil does not pump for shizzle. Also that being said, you cannot cool down foaming oil, the air insulates it and keeps it nice and toasty. Viscosity will break down to a point of Vodka.

This is going to sound stupid, but I don't like that mesh screen in there, the openings look way too small to me, not to mention it looks as though it is installed the wrong way, you shouldn't be able to see through it looking down on it...You can. This could cause the aeration to gain momentum and begin to vortex the oil into a mist.

I would like to see a larger opening in the mesh and have it direct the windage edit; away from the sump.

In my haste to post I made an error. I was in a hurry to get a cup of Starbucks...
:coffee-n-news:

Just a humble Internet experts opinion. :cyberguy:
 

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To add to my previous statement, I believe the mesh is creating a vacuum so to speak on the sump at higher RPM making the trap harder to feed.

If the "louvers" were faced toward the windage, it would be pressurized.

All this is tricky to try and explain without talking with your hands....Is there an app for that? :)eh:)

:D
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Sleeper,

You made a funny comment and I wanted to, well, make a comment :)eh:)

You said "I just hope the oil doesn't get to hot with less volume." Really? :hmmm:

If the oil is being aerated by windage it is turning to foam anyways, which is why you are losing OP, foaming oil does not pump for shizzle. Also that being said, you cannot cool down foaming oil, the air insulates it and keeps it nice and toasty. Viscosity will break down to a point of Vodka.
The oil psi drop is nearly instantaneous; running at 58 psi at 4,000, smash the throttle to the floor psi drops as tach passes 5,000. I don't think there is much time to foam the oil at the snap of a finger? If the oil was already foamed wouldn't the psi be crap at 4,500? The oil temps were in-line as to what I've seen over the past 18 years. So something tells me it's not a foamy issue....but I've been wrong before :idea:



This is going to sound stupid, but I don't like that mesh screen in there, the openings look way too small to me, not to mention it looks as though it is installed the wrong way, you shouldn't be able to see through it looking down on it...You can. This could cause the aeration to gain momentum and begin to vortex the oil into a mist.

I would like to see a larger opening in the mesh and have it direct the windage :
If the mesh were the problem then why didn't this show-up on the dyno? It not only held good psi during the dyno pulls but as Steve was "driving" it on the dyno a few quick hits from 4,000 - 6,000 this wasn't a problem? In the boat the psi drops nearly instantly as I hit the gas.

I've been asked if I thought it could be a drain-back issue. It didn't happen on the dyno, it holds great psi at 4,000-4,500 rpm for miles and miles on the river and once again the psi drops as soon as the throttle is smashed.

S CP
 

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The oil psi drop is nearly instantaneous; running at 58 psi at 4,000, smash the throttle to the floor psi drops as tach passes 5,000. I don't think there is much time to foam the oil at the snap of a finger? If the oil was already foamed wouldn't the psi be crap at 4,500? The oil temps were in-line as to what I've seen over the past 18 years. So something tells me it's not a foamy issue....but I've been wrong before :idea:





If the mesh were the problem then why didn't this show-up on the dyno? It not only held good psi during the dyno pulls but as Steve was "driving" it on the dyno a few quick hits from 4,000 - 6,000 this wasn't a problem? In the boat the psi drops nearly instantly as I hit the gas.

I've been asked if I thought it could be a drain-back issue. It didn't happen on the dyno, it holds great psi at 4,000-4,500 rpm for miles and miles on the river and once again the psi drops as soon as the throttle is smashed.

S CP
If your oil level is at the tray (the tray looks pretty low in the sump IMHO), the windage can create a negative pressure in the trap and starve it for oil, at slower speeds the negative is smaller and fills the trap with little effort. A way to prove it would be to safety wire the door open and test it out. A pain in the ass yes, but may answer some crazy questions. Just keep the sphincter tightening maneuvers to a minimum until the door is operational again... :shock:

Dumb question, but how rigid is your pick up mounted? Is there even a remote chance it could be pulled to the bottom of the pan?

Dumb question number two........How certain are you of the pressure readings? have they been verified by a second gauge, I call this a dumb question because it only seems to do it with this pan, but curiosity killed the cat.

Dumb question number three and then I'll need to think up more dumb questions LOL, how easy do the trap doors move, they should be able to be actuated by rocking the pan back and forth and virtually always stay plumb....I have seen them bind and starve the trap for oil. This is especially important if the pans gasket surface is not perfectly true. The rails can distort and bind up the hinge.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
If your oil level is at the tray (the tray looks pretty low in the sump IMHO), the windage can create a negative pressure in the trap and starve it for oil, at slower speeds the negative is smaller and fills the trap with little effort. A way to prove it would be to safety wire the door open and test it out. A pain in the ass yes, but may answer some crazy questions. Just keep the sphincter tightening maneuvers to a minimum until the door is operational again... :shock:
.
I've thought about that tray being close the the oil. The old one bolts to the mains so it may have more clearance on the under-side to the bottom of the pan. That is possible, but then again was not an issue at 7,000 rpm on the dyno with the 8 qrts in the pan? I guess a good question would be: How much oil remains in the pan ? See thread:

http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno/75372-how-much-oil-stays-oil-pan.html

The negative pressure thing, on would think the same would have happened on the dyno ?

Dumb question, but how rigid is your pick up mounted? Is there even a remote chance it could be pulled to the bottom of the pan?
1" OD pipe anchored to the mains it's 1/2" off the pan floor and it's not going anywhere.


the other pick-up was not as stout and it had even worse psi issues.

No reason for me not to believe the oil psi readings, but I have given some thought of adding a gauge on the "in" side of the filter adapter: run a line up the side of the head and be able to read it at the top of the engine



As to the trap doors: they open and swing really easy.

This oil pump should be moving as much oil as it's going to move at 4,500 I'd think. These type of pumps have some sort of internal by-pass. I'll check with Paul.

I'll put 7 qrts in the pan first and see what happens then move up to 8. We do know that worked on the dyno.

BTW, I've received two phone calls on this today... they didn't want to post in the thread.

S CP
 

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Sleeper

On the dyno you had the Kaase dual feed pump with great pressure, is this the pump your using in the boat? A friend has a Charlie's pan and had a similar problem until they modified the pickup.

Sorry to read about the dive in pressure when you mash the gas:(
 

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This oil pump should be moving as much oil as it's going to move at 4,500 I'd think. These type of pumps have some sort of internal by-pass. I'll check with Paul.

I'll put 7 qrts in the pan first and see what happens then move up to 8. We do know that worked on the dyno.

BTW, I've received two phone calls on this today... they didn't want to post in the thread.

S CP
I would be curious to see the results. If this is the case where it works with less oil then I would say that there is a drafting issue in the area outside the trap. A 3/4" hole in the top of the wall of the trap common to the sump should all but cure it.

I also have no problems saying stupid chit on an open forum....It helps me remember stupid things...You learn twice as much from a mistake as you do from a success....:)devil

In other words, I have no pride left.:)eh:)
 

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The negative pressure thing, on would think the same would have happened on the dyno ?



S CP
As for the negative in the pan with 10 quarts, the oil acts like a P-trap dividing the pan into two parts...With the lower oil levels, this division was non existent because the oil level was below the tray...IMHO
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Sleeper

On the dyno you had the Kaase dual feed pump with great pressure, is this the pump your using in the boat? A friend has a Charlie's pan and had a similar problem until they modified the pickup.

Sorry to read about the dive in pressure when you mash the gas:(
No this is a new set-up from the dyno. In the boat this set-up is 8-10 psi better than the Kaase pump and pick-up from Steph's. At 4,500 it's better than 12 psi better with 220* oil.

Pump info:
http://www.performanceboats.com/dyno/103299-high-flow-dynamics-oil-pump.html

S CP
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
In other words, I have no pride left.:)eh:)

Neither do I. I post this stuff so others might learn something I've already taken the hit, if someone finds them self in the same spot they might know the answer now. The thought did cross my mind about drilling a few holes in the back baffle.

S CP
 

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Not sure how 'true' this could be but, a local engine builder always welds a flat plate under the the oil pan where the pump-pu would be...reason > he told me "on his dyno he saw an unexplained drop in oil pressure...stating that, under WOT the bottom of the pan deflected, was sucked-up and was sucked to the pu" :shock:
Sleep > I had the same exact issue on my 'cheap' Milodon Pan, I can only run 8 qts in a "10 qt" pan...kinda sucks.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #16

Sleep > I had the same exact issue on my 'cheep' Milodon Pan, I can only run 8 qts in a "10 qt" pan...kinda sucks.


So just think how this feels with an expensive 12 qrt pan that can only run 8....you're a head in this game. :shock:


S CP :redface:
 

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steelcomp was here
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What changed from being on the dyno to being in the boat?
Does the pressure fall off if you slowly roll into the throttle after 4500?
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
What changed from being on the dyno to being in the boat?
Does the pressure fall off if you slowly roll into the throttle after 4500?
All the external lines and filter(s) weren't on the dyno, never an issue before this. Not an issue in '93 all the way to 2010. Many rebuilds and several trips to the dyno. Switched pans and now it's an issue.

Pressure is an issue beyond 4,500 rather rolled in or a quick hit.

S CP
 

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steelcomp was here
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All the external lines and filter(s) weren't on the dyno, never an issue before this. Not an issue in '93 all the way to 2010. Many rebuilds and several trips to the dyno. Switched pans and now it's an issue.

Pressure is an issue beyond 4,500 rather rolled in or a quick hit.

S CP
Yeah, but you changed the ball game a little. You put more demand on the system. Not sayin that's it, just sayin...
It seems you have a dynamic issue. May be as simple as the change in attitude from the dyno to the boat, and how that effects the oil level. This is kind of a mystery. I had a similar problem with Hallet Dave's 489, but I found a smokin gun and was able to fix it.
What are your bearing clearances?
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Yeah, but you changed the ball game a little. You put more demand on the system. Not sayin that's it, just sayin...
It seems you have a dynamic issue. May be as simple as the change in attitude from the dyno to the boat, and how that effects the oil level. This is kind of a mystery. I had a similar problem with Hallet Dave's 489, but I found a smokin gun and was able to fix it.
What are your bearing clearances?
yes true but my everyday over the counter Dooley handled it for all those years..... If it ain't broke don't fit it .

I'm learning oil systems are more dynamic than first thought.
Off the top of my head...don't recall on the clearances I can dig out a build sheet ...but that's not the problem either.

Both pans side by side:
The lip in the rear of the Dooley is about 3" off the bottom and 1.5" overhang. The Steph's lip is 1.5" off the bottom


S CP
 
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