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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
F-22: Pilots refusing to fly?

Being in the aerospace defense industry and the only reason I'm not in the Air Force is because I'm ineligible, things like this make me mad. I know how the defense industry works, I know how the Air Force works as It's our major customer and I grew up around it. I'm not going to go into detail on my opinions because we sort of lose our rights to speak openly on issues like this but here's a story and at the bottom is the 60 minutes interview.

Fighter Pilots Claim Intimidation Over F-22 Raptor Jets - Yahoo! News

Oh, don't forget Lockheed's twitter campaign.

Lockheed Martin's Response to '60 Minutes': The F-22 Is Pretty Cool - Yahoo! News
 

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Colts fan & Stoker owner
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We watched that 60 minutes episode on Sunday. I was surprised to hear about the bad press on the F22. Definitely is one bad mofo of a fighter jet. I never worked on the F22 but have worked on the F35.
 

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Marine Organism
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After a lengthy investigation, an Air Force Accident Investigation Board could not find the cause of the malfunction but determined "by clear and convincing evidence" that in addition to other factors, Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to breathe to fly the plane properly.
:wtf:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
We watched that 60 minutes episode on Sunday. I was surprised to hear about the bad press on the F22. Definitely is one bad mofo of a fighter jet. I never worked on the F22 but have worked on the F35.
F-22 is a fine plane. However, it has a critical system problem. All planes have problems, even the one I work on that have been flying for over 20 years have system problem. The risk/severity is always considered with these issues, but I think this case with the F-22 is pure politics.

The answer will probably be that the pilot comes out in the gen 6.
 

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Why do they go and blame the pilot, then they change the emergency oxy handle? It definitely sounds like it is a mechanical problem, and they need to fix it; Our Pilots are the greatest in the world, but noone can operate anything without oxygen!

Kind of reminds me of the USS Iowa turret explosion, where they tried to blame a sailor who was supposedly gay, when the captain and Gunnery Officer knew that they were experimenting with exotic gun powders, etc.....and knew there were problems with the mechanism that rams the powder bags in.

The only way to fix the problem is to get the facts, then address the real problem.....Cover-ups suck.
 

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Living in a cage of fear
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The only way to fix the problem is to get the facts, then address the real problem.....Cover-ups suck.
Are you talking about Holder?
Or Solyndra?
Or the BC?

Oops! Wrong thread........
 

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Aviation week magazine has a good article on this . Seem they are looking at pilot gear at the moment


F-22.jpg


As for the pilots that refuse to fly . Kick them out . Let them fly some transport route out of Puerto Rico full of banana,s
 

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As for the pilots that refuse to fly . Kick them out . Let them fly some transport route out of Puerto Rico full of banana,s
There are actually times when the military brass are.......wrong; It happens, and the brass needs to stop looking for a scape-goat and address the real problem......Please show me a man who can fly a plane without oxygen....I mean, maybe you don't mind losing all our pilots and billion dollar F-22s so you can ignore the real problem, but I think thats not the right way to take care of the problem.
 

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There are actually times when the military brass are.......wrong; It happens, and the brass needs to stop looking for a scape-goat and address the real problem......Please show me a man who can fly a plane without oxygen....I mean, maybe you don't mind losing all our pilots and billion dollar F-22s so you can ignore the real problem, but I think thats not the right way to take care of the problem.
These were my feelings on it.

Many planes are obviously able to function at much higher G's than humans, hense pressure suits.

Have to figure out how to correctly enable the human to fly it.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
As for the pilots that refuse to fly . Kick them out . Let them fly some transport route out of Puerto Rico full of banana,s
So if 18% of M4's blew up causing a 2% fatality rate you'd be all for kicking out all the soldiers refusing to fire M4's and wanted to use M16's while M4's go through further testing?

The cost of the machine is cheap in this case, so you can set that aspect aside.

If 15% of the Army is Infantry, this leave 170,000 using the weapon regularly. Which means you'd be perfectly fine with 3,400 men and women dying to a faulty design the Army is not willing to fix with a full investigation and temporary discontinuation because it may be embarrassing.

The Air Force scenario is the same ratio but on a smaller scale, except we lose a multi-million dollar fighter each time it happens critically.
 

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There are actually times when the military brass are.......wrong; It happens, and the brass needs to stop looking for a scape-goat and address the real problem......Please show me a man who can fly a plane without oxygen....I mean, maybe you don't mind losing all our pilots and billion dollar F-22s so you can ignore the real problem, but I think thats not the right way to take care of the problem.
Get a grip , These are isolated incident . I,m sure everyone in the loop are wanting to find the cause of it . Thats besides the point though ,

These Pilots signed up for this program , So they should fulfill their obligations , If they cant do that . Transfer out , Its as simple as that
 

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Get a grip , These are isolated incident . I,m sure everyone in the loop are wanting to find the cause of it . Thats besides the point though ,

These Pilots signed up for this program , So they should fulfill their obligations , If they cant do that . Transfer out , Its as simple as that

Wow......"They were expendable".....I know, to make them perform better, how 'bout we strap an explosive vest to them....or better yet, strap the explosives to their family.....How about making sure the plane they are flying isn't a death trap?
 

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Red Blooded American
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Chuck Yeager is laughing his head off at this entire thread.
This is a brand new plane with bugs to work out. Some are more significant than others but they will work them out!
 

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This is a very fine line to walk :)eh:)

The pilot in charge, captain.of a ship, rests the responsibilty of worthness

When we flew to D.S. last week with Bully we used O2 system
and a finger moniter for oxy saturation warning levels.It's nothing to joke with

If the best of the best, say you have a problem. Then you have a problem !!!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Chuck Yeager is laughing his head off at this entire thread.
This is a brand new plane with bugs to work out. Some are more significant than others but they will work them out!
First of all, these are not test pilots. These pilots do not have test pilot training. Not all pilots want to be test pilots. They do not want the fame that goes along with Milo Burcham, Richard Bong, Glen Edwards, George Welsh, Mel Apt, Iven Carl Kincheloe Jr., Joseph A. Walker, Michael James Adams and many more men you couldn't name off the top of your head if you tried becase all you know is Chuck Yeager (who I've met twice) and maybe Cpt. Edwards.

This is a life support system failure and they are unaware when a problem occurs. This is a serious issue. This isn't something the pilot can control or make a ration decision to avoid. They can't make a decision to avoid esculations of the problem. What happens if this occurs over populated areas? Having a F-22 nosedive at Mach 1.4 into a random spot in western LA county with a completly disoriented pilot probably would not turn out well. Pilots make erros, systems fail, stuff happens pilot's die. That's a fact. However the relaxness in which they seem to be approaching this is unacceptable. I could be mis informed, but if this was the case on the aircraft I work on with this issue and this rate of occurance it would NEVER fly til it's fixed.
 

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This is a very fine line to walk :)eh:)

The pilot in charge, captain.of a ship, rests the responsibilty of worthness

When we flew to D.S. last week with Bully we used O2 system
and a finger moniter for oxy saturation warning levels.It's nothing to joke with

If the best of the best, say you have a problem. Then you have a problem !!!
I want to make it clear, I believe the F-22 is a great aircraft, but any new system, especially one as unbelievably complicated as this aircraft, WILL have bugs in them, and they need to be addressed properly.....and going after pilots who, by definition, are the creme of the crop, when the problem is obvious, is ridiculous.....The problem is that public opinion can have an impact on funding, and there are a whole lot of funding going into the F-22 program, so there are company execs, and military brass, that are trying to spin this so it doesn't sound like the A/c has the problem.

The best example of proper control from the top in the military is Admiral Rickover, who took the nuclear submarine program and turned it into the best service in the Navy, by a wide margin....and he didn't do that by covering up problems nor by blaming someone to take the spotlight off the problem.
 

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First of all, these are not test pilots. These pilots do not have test pilot training. Not all pilots want to be test pilots. They do not want the fame that goes along with Milo Burcham, Richard Bong, Glen Edwards, George Welsh, Mel Apt, Iven Carl Kincheloe Jr., Joseph A. Walker, Michael James Adams and many more men you couldn't name off the top of your head if you tried becase all you know is Chuck Yeager (who I've met twice) and maybe Cpt. Edwards.

This is a life support system failure and they are unaware when a problem occurs. This is a serious issue. This isn't something the pilot can control or make a ration decision to avoid. They can't make a decision to avoid esculations of the problem. What happens if this occurs over populated areas? Having a F-22 nosedive at Mach 1.4 into a random spot in western LA county with a completly disoriented pilot probably would not turn out well. Pilots make erros, systems fail, stuff happens pilot's die. That's a fact. However the relaxness in which they seem to be approaching this is unacceptable. I could be mis informed, but if this was the case on the aircraft I work on with this issue and this rate of occurance it would NEVER fly til it's fixed.
That is whats puzzling all the experts , Its not a Life support system Failure . , The onboard Honeywell oxygen system checks out , They cant find a thing wrong with it


The latest article in Aviation week magazine said they are looking at the Physiological support equipment

The Majority of the incidents have occurred at the end of a flight and the Majority of incidents occurred out of 2 bases Langley AFB Virginia and Joint base Elmendorf-Richardson . Alaska , The Alaska pilots are using Cold weather gear and the pilots that fly out of Langley are using Anti-exposer gear
 

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That is whats puzzling all the experts , Its not a Life support system Failure . , The onboard Honeywell oxygen system checks out , They cant find a thing wrong with it


The latest article in Aviation week magazine said they are looking at the Physiological support equipment

The Majority of the incidents have occurred at the end of a flight and the Majority of incidents occurred out of 2 bases Langley AFB Virginia and Joint base Elmendorf-Richardson . Alaska , The Alaska pilots are using Cold weather gear and the pilots that fly out of Langley are using Anti-exposer gear
Sometimes the problem is almost impossible to find....Things don't always work the way you think; The control reversal at high mach speeds in Fighter A/C was a real surprise tp engineers, and one I was directly involved with; The S-3 Viking had Kapton insulated wiring- the stuff was amazing....They tested it in ozone, Hyd fluid, fuel, Ultra-violet, etc and it wouldn't degrade......But a mixture of all that, and five years later, you could take the insulation off with your fingernail......I would splice new wire in at the wingfold with enviromental splices(No- they didn't bleed!) which needs heat to shrink the seal on.....Five years later, the plane would return, and I'd have to splice farther along 'cause the wire by the splice was disintegrating.
 
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