Performance Boats Forum banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
On a solid roller FE motor, I have the lifter galleys plugged and running typical non-oiled pushrods, but we keep burning up the ends of some of the pushrods at the rocker. I'm changing to go to an oil-fed pushrod and my question is, do I just remove the plugs and let the loi flow to the lifters, or should I still restrict the oil some?
TIA
 

·
Bostick Racing Engines
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
What brand lifters? Is the oil hole in the band or up from there?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,975 Posts
I going to assume you are using a lifter that was actually made for a 385 series. I have never seen an FE solid that sent oil to the pushrod.
If they are, and they do sent oil to the PR, check to see if the feed hole is on the finished o.d. of the lifter, or in the waist band. They are almost always on the finished o.d. just above the waist band. Not much oil passes thru an edge orfice feed hole. You will loose more oil just from the same old leakage arouind the lifter than what goes up that hole. I would only restrict the supply if you are running fairly high RPM for extended periods with very little low rpm stuff. When you restrict the gallery, most of the oil thru the lifter gallery just bleeds past the lifter at low RPM, and you still risk burning the
PR ends.

Have you considered tool steel ends and adjusters.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
They're Morel Ultra Pros for the FE. They are not edge ofrificeted, they're basically straight through with no band.



I can see the hole in the top...





I going to assume you are using a lifter that was actually made for a 385 series. I have never seen an FE solid that sent oil to the pushrod.
If they are, and they do sent oil to the PR, check to see if the feed hole is on the finished o.d. of the lifter, or in the waist band. They are almost always on the finished o.d. just above the waist band. Not much oil passes thru an edge orfice feed hole. You will loose more oil just from the same old leakage arouind the lifter than what goes up that hole. I would only restrict the supply if you are running fairly high RPM for extended periods with very little low rpm stuff. When you restrict the gallery, most of the oil thru the lifter gallery just bleeds past the lifter at low RPM, and you still risk burning the
PR ends.

Have you considered tool steel ends and adjusters.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,180 Posts
I have forgot more then I remember on these. I do remember doing the same thing 20-30 years ago. I did the restrictor thing and had the same problem. I removed them and had no more problem. But we did not have the roller lifters then. Same problem? Don't know. There are 2 blocks. If it had solids from the factory the oil galley was not drilled in the block and was if hydraulic. I might remember more later. :)sphss
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,115 Posts
On a solid roller FE motor, I have the lifter galleys plugged and running typical non-oiled pushrods, but we keep burning up the ends of some of the pushrods at the rocker. I'm changing to go to an oil-fed pushrod and my question is, do I just remove the plugs and let the loi flow to the lifters, or should I still restrict the oil some?
TIA
IMO you have too much oil feed restriction in the heads. The reduced pressure and volume in the rockershaft isn't getting to the end rocker enough to splash oil at the cup. Try a larger metering orface. Also you might want to check the rocker to shaft clearance, too much will bleed off the oil to the end rocker.
 

·
Bostick Racing Engines
Joined
·
1,063 Posts
They're Morel Ultra Pros for the FE. They are not edge ofrificeted, they're basically straight through with no band.



I can see the hole in the top...
So... I'm going to ask so I do not say something stupid here... The hole goes all the way thru and is in line with the oil gallery? That large hole? There is a hole in the the bottom where the pushrod goes into this larger cross hole? I ask because of two resaons; 1) I am not familiar with the Morels as I have only used the Crowers on the FE and 2) Seems that if what I asked is the case, then you'd have a whole lot of oil going upstairs... like waaaay too much.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
IMO you have too much oil feed restriction in the heads. The reduced pressure and volume in the rockershaft isn't getting to the end rocker enough to splash oil at the cup. Try a larger metering orface. Also you might want to check the rocker to shaft clearance, too much will bleed off the oil to the end rocker.
Thanks 058. I understand what you're saying. I have .080 restrictors and I've been told those may be bigger than I need and might have excessive oil in the heads. The shaft assys are new and I had to hone the rockers to fit. They're about .0015-.002 if I remember.
We're just going to restrict the lifter galleys to .100 and give it a try.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
So... I'm going to ask so I do not say something stupid here... The hole goes all the way thru and is in line with the oil gallery? That large hole? There is a hole in the the bottom where the pushrod goes into this larger cross hole? I ask because of two resaons; 1) I am not familiar with the Morels as I have only used the Crowers on the FE and 2) Seems that if what I asked is the case, then you'd have a whole lot of oil going upstairs... like waaaay too much.
I don't think there's a hole in the side of the lifters...only the ones front to rear.

ETA...so I looked at a close up of another pic I have of the lifters and it looks like there is a small hole in the sides of the lifters.
 

·
New here
Joined
·
4,219 Posts
Thanks 058. I understand what you're saying. I have .080 restrictors and I've been told those may be bigger than I need and might have excessive oil in the heads. The shaft assys are new and I had to hone the rockers to fit. They're about .0015-.002 if I remember.
We're just going to restrict the lifter galleys to .100 and give it a try.
I followed and praised your awesome build/straightening of this motor. I have a 390 FE in my '67 Galaxie 500 convertible and have never been into one before.

Along the lines of oil in the heads.....can you plumb in some better (external) returns to the pan? Like on some GM motors that need external plumbing to return excessive oil back to the bottom end? Then you could run whatever (or no) restriction?? Just a thought, but I may be way off base?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,975 Posts
I have to agree with both 058 and 6-oh-9. The shaft/rocker is a huge leak. To much restriction will starve the entire assembly enough to keep it from building pressure. Look back at the thread, I see they are buched rockers. I'd give it more oil to the shaft.

Why? Because I agree with 6-oh-9. Those may be FE specific, but I bet they are just 385 lifters that haven't been drilled. I bet that hole goes nowhere. Never seen a lifter drilled straight down. And why would Morel send oil there. Where would it go?

And last Steel, the very reason I went on the big oil hunt a couple years back was PR ends and adjusters, lifter bodies, and piston pins. I have zero issues now. None.
Is he running what you told him to? Or is it something else.
AND, if you look at M1's website, they do not recommend 10/30 as a repalcement for their 0/50 racing oil for use on the street, but rather 0/40. Interesting! What are they trying to tell you?

LINK: Mobil 1 racing

The 10/30 oil is approved as a ILSAC GF5 oil. Not a real inspiring approval to say the least.
LINK: Mobil 1 10/30

The 0/40 is not ILSAC approved. Mmmm
LINK: Mobil 1 0/40

And if you look at this sheet, you will see there is a oh so slight difference between the 0/40 and the 10/30. And this sheet is old and the 10/30 on it is a GF4 oil, not a GF5 that it is now. By the way, how many oil companies are posting a sheet like this on line?
LINK: Mobil 1 product data sheet.

Just some food for thought. Mobil 1 kicks ass, but sadly, they are not all create equal today. You know what I am running, and what Nelson is running. Not looking to start a big oil thread and go thru all that BS again. Its just a thought.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,975 Posts
I don't think there's a hole in the side of the lifters...only the ones front to rear.

ETA...so I looked at a close up of another pic I have of the lifters and it looks like there is a small hole in the sides of the lifters.
If they are in fact for a FE, I would be very surprised they have a oil hole. And if for a 385, the hole would be on the side you see in the pic. If the hole was on the inboard side, it would no longer be an edge orfice. It would line up dead on with the oil galley in a 385.
I am beginning to seriouly doubt flowing oil to the lifters is going to help you.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
If they are in fact for a FE, I would be very surprised they have a oil hole. And if for a 385, the hole would be on the side you see in the pic. If the hole was on the inboard side, it would no longer be an edge orfice. It would line up dead on with the oil galley in a 385.
I am beginning to seriouly doubt flowing oil to the lifters is going to help you.
I'll let you know how it works out.:)hand
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I followed and praised your awesome build/straightening of this motor. I have a 390 FE in my '67 Galaxie 500 convertible and have never been into one before.

Along the lines of oil in the heads.....can you plumb in some better (external) returns to the pan? Like on some GM motors that need external plumbing to return excessive oil back to the bottom end? Then you could run whatever (or no) restriction?? Just a thought, but I may be way off base?
Thanks Beer...you're not off base, but it sholdn't be necessary. The restriction is more to help keep oil on the mains.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I have to agree with both 058 and 6-oh-9. The shaft/rocker is a huge leak. To much restriction will starve the entire assembly enough to keep it from building pressure. Look back at the thread, I see they are buched rockers. I'd give it more oil to the shaft.

Why? Because I agree with 6-oh-9. Those may be FE specific, but I bet they are just 385 lifters that haven't been drilled. I bet that hole goes nowhere. Never seen a lifter drilled straight down. And why would Morel send oil there. Where would it go?

And last Steel, the very reason I went on the big oil hunt a couple years back was PR ends and adjusters, lifter bodies, and piston pins. I have zero issues now. None.
Is he running what you told him to? Or is it something else.
AND, if you look at M1's website, they do not recommend 10/30 as a repalcement for their 0/50 racing oil for use on the street, but rather 0/40. Interesting! What are they trying to tell you?

LINK: Mobil 1 racing

The 10/30 oil is approved as a ILSAC GF5 oil. Not a real inspiring approval to say the least.
LINK: Mobil 1 10/30

The 0/40 is not ILSAC approved. Mmmm
LINK: Mobil 1 0/40

And if you look at this sheet, you will see there is a oh so slight difference between the 0/40 and the 10/30. And this sheet is old and the 10/30 on it is a GF4 oil, not a GF5 that it is now. By the way, how many oil companies are posting a sheet like this on line?
LINK: Mobil 1 product data sheet.

Just some food for thought. Mobil 1 kicks ass, but sadly, they are not all create equal today. You know what I am running, and what Nelson is running. Not looking to start a big oil thread and go thru all that BS again. Its just a thought.
I think he's running 5/30
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,975 Posts
I think he's running 5/30
Wish I could tell that was better, but IMO, its not. There are just better M1 oils on the shelf right next to that one, so unless he or you are just stuck with that particular wt. ???

You'll notice that it, and the 10/30 both state at the top of the page they meet GL5.
I will tell you, I know for sure, there is a very good reason Mobil 1 points you to 0/40 for street use over 0/30, and 0/50 Racing. Because they know their product:D

LINK: Mobil 1 5/30

There is a 10/40 you may what to point him towards;)

Steel, its not the oil thru the PR. Its either too little oil to the shaft, or its old fashioned metal to metal contact, with nothing more than a boundry layer of lube. No different than in 1972 when we ran a roller in a 427, with dry lifters. Only one things has really changed. Welcome to my world:)hand



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,515 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Wish I could tell that was better, but IMO, its not. There are just better M1 oils on the shelf right next to that one, so unless he or you are just stuck with that particular wt. ???

You'll notice that it, and the 10/30 both state at the top of the page they meet GL5.
I will tell you, I know for sure, there is a very good reason Mobil 1 points you to 0/40 for street use over 0/30, and 0/50 Racing. Because they know their product:D

LINK: Mobil 1 5/30We may have to upgrade the oil...I have no problem with that.
I've talked with several guys today who are currently heavily involved in FE's. This is not uncommon. It seems some engines do it, some don't. The ones that do, you address the issue. One guy is currently running three FE's...one has had this problem, the other two never did. His solution was to go to the T&D setup, block the heads off entirely and go to pushrod-only oiling for the top end. That's not an option for the shafts, so his suggestions was what I'm thinking as well. Restrict the heads some, restrict the lifters some, feed the pushrods, and see what happens. He tried less restriction in the heads, still burnt pushrods and had to much oil in the heads. I disagree that it's about the oil to the heads. Lot of guys running smaller restrictors than I am with no issues. I know the rocker bushings aren't overly loose. The ONLY difference between this and any other set up is the lack of pressured oil at the tip of the pushrod. Even a trickle will probably make the difference, plus some better oil.

There is a 10/40 you may what to point him towards;)

Steel, its not the oil thru the PR. Its either too little oil to the shaft, or its old fashioned metal to metal contact, with nothing more than a boundry layer of lube. No different than in 1972 when we ran a roller in a 427, with dry lifters. Only one things has really changed. Welcome to my world:)hand
We may have to upgrade the oil...I have no problem with that.
I've talked with several guys today who are currently heavily involved in FE's. This is not uncommon. It seems some engines do it, some don't. The ones that do, you address the issue. One guy is currently running three FE's...one has had this problem, the other two never did. His solution was to go to the T&D setup, block the heads off entirely and go to pushrod-only oiling for the top end. That's not an option for the shafts, so his suggestions was what I'm thinking as well. Restrict the heads some, restrict the lifters some, feed the pushrods, and see what happens. He tried less restriction in the heads, still burnt pushrods and had to much oil in the heads. I disagree that it's about the oil to the heads and shafts. Lot of guys running smaller restrictors than I am with no issues. I know the rocker bushings aren't overly loose. The ONLY difference between this and any other set up is the lack of pressured oil at the tip of the pushrod. Even a trickle will probably make the difference, plus some better oil.
 

·
New here
Joined
·
4,219 Posts
It's not as easy as changing oil. If the oil was too light, you would have problems throughout the motor - not just in one place.

IMO, based on the FACT of how well he built this motor - thicker oil would HURT it. The clearances are all right-on. Thicker oil would reduce the amount getting through the orifices and SHOULD cause more heating issues. Latest tests show that lighter, higher quality oil, will COOL better. The more volume thrown against a part equals more material to transfer heat into.

Besides, look at oil ratings at 212 degrees. 30 and 50 are only a few numbers apart. There's virtually no difference at all.

Again, I may be wrong, because unlike GN7 - I don't know EVERYTHING. But, I've done my homework on oils. Using NASCAR again - they are going to thinner and thinner oils and not cooking ANY pushrods. It's NOT an oil problem. That would be WAY too simple.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
25,975 Posts
It's not as easy as changing oil. If the oil was too light, you would have problems throughout the motor - not just in one place.

IMO, based on the FACT of how well he built this motor - thicker oil would HURT it. The clearances are all right-on. Thicker oil would reduce the amount getting through the orifices and SHOULD cause more heating issues. Latest tests show that lighter, higher quality oil, will COOL better. The more volume thrown against a part equals more material to transfer heat into.

Besides, look at oil ratings at 212 degrees. 30 and 50 are only a few numbers apart. There's virtually no difference at all.
Again, I may be wrong, because unlike GN7 - I don't know EVERYTHING. But, I've done my homework on oils. Using NASCAR again - they are going to thinner and thinner oils and not cooking ANY pushrods. It's NOT an oil problem. That would be WAY too simple.
Beer, your talking out both corners of you mouth here. Maybe not intentionally, but: "if the oil was too light, you would having problems throughtout the motor, not just one place." Followed by Nascar using lighter and lighter oils and not burning pushrods.
Who said the oil was too light?
There is more to an oil than viscosity and centistokes. Mentioning the viscosity differences between 30 and 50 is meaningless in this situation.
Nascar doesn't run 250 lb+ spring pressures, but they do have their own issues aside from pushrod tips.
Why doesn't the Nascar guys just run the 0/30 from Pep Boys instead of the stuff 0/30 they do, which runs about 15.00 a quart, when bought by the pallet.
Why does Mobil recommend 0/40 as a replacement for 0/30 Racing, and not 10/30, or 5/30?
And, knowing what you know, you are aware that the viscocity has virtually nothing to do with PR tip wear or virtually any other boundry layer lubed part, unless as you said it was so heavy as to reduc flow. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

Now I know you are way up on all this, so you may wish to call Mobil or drop them a line and let them know that there is virtually no difference between their 0/40, and their 10/30 as a performance oil. Just sayin



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,115 Posts
This may be a longshot but check the rocker and confirm that it is drilled to oil the pushrod cups. OEM rockers assemblys had small grooves in the rockershafts and/or the rocker to channel oil to the pushrod and to the rocker tip. Make sure the oil holes in the rockershafts are in the down position, don't laugh...more often than not this gets overlooked even by the more experenced engine builders. Also, check to see how many oiling holes are in the rockershafts, some of the early FoMoCo shafts has 2 or 3 holes per rocker. You said the metering plugs are .080"...that should be more than enough so I would check the oil clearance at the rockershaft stud to stand to make sure there is enough clearance to pass oil, it wouldn't be unheard of if the stud and stand restricted the oil even more than the metering plug. One last thing, check the drains holes in those heads. Some Edelbrocks are way too small either due to being misdrilled, not drilled completly thru or some type of core or tooling shift. I think we talked about this once before.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top