Performance Boats Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK guys, who is really up on the Holleys?

Q #1. Accelerator nozzle check ball/pin.
On a 4165 series carb, (spread bore DP) what type of nozzle check is used. The little balls, or the pointed pins? I'm rebuilding one, and it had neither. The primary pump reservoir has the orange/pinkish umbrella type check valve below the bowl to prevent pushing fuel back into the bowl when the pump works. But nothing under the nozzle screws to keep the fuel "charge" up in the circuit at the nozzle....I had some check balls from kits over the years, but the .058/.062, (1/16th inch) ball just falls through. I would think the pointed pin was used on these models, but neither pri, or sec had anything under the screws. Am I to assume these parts were left out by the previous owner? Also, the secondary bowl has the old style ball check in the reservoir.....

Q#2. I have the same missing part on two 660 center squirters. There was nothing under the center nozzle of either carb.....(EDIT, OK I looked at the other 660, and it DOES have a pointed pin thingy under the nozzle, so disregard the 660 question...)

I know without those check balls/pins, the accelerator pump circuit drains back and causes either a "pop" or a stumble when you nail it.....So, which type was used in the 4165 series, and the list 4224 C/squirt carbs......Ray

PS: The "blow up" of the 4165 supplied with the kit shows nothing under the nozzle screws???
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
I've always replaced the ball with the pointed pin. I like them because they're just a little heavier. I know 660's came with the pointed pin. Not 100% sure on the 4165.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
Well, I just looked down the hole of the 4165 I have (6910), and there's no way a pointed pin will work. The hole seems to go all the way to the bottom of the passage...not even sure I see a seat for a ball check. Look down the hole for a 4150 and I can see a definite seat for the pointed pin. I'd say the 4165 either uses a ball, or nothing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Umbrella?

Well, I just looked down the hole of the 4165 I have (6910), and there's no way a pointed pin will work. The hole seems to go all the way to the bottom of the passage...not even sure I see a seat for a ball check. Look down the hole for a 4150 and I can see a definite seat for the pointed pin. I'd say the 4165 either uses a ball, or nothing.
Scott, is it possible the 4165 uses just the umbrella deal check valve? I agree, the 4165 hole goes all the way down and the 1/16th ball falls right through and out the hole in the main body.....The 660s use the pointed thingy, see my edit above.....Ray
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
Scott, is it possible the 4165 uses just the umbrella deal check valve? I agree, the 4165 hole goes all the way down and the 1/16th ball falls right through and out the hole in the main body.....The 660s use the pointed thingy, see my edit above.....Ray
I just pulled the acc pump off this one, and it has the captured steel check ball in the float bowl, not the umbrella style. If the flot bowl doesn't have the check valve then you must use the umbrella style.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Sealed?

I just pulled the acc pump off this one, and it has the captured steel check ball in the float bowl, not the umbrella style. If the flot bowl doesn't have the check valve then you must use the umbrella style.
So, do you think the umbrella deal holds the "charge" at the top of the circuit? And yeah, this one's primary bowl has the umbrella deal, and the secondary has the captured ball seal??? I guess I'll go to the Holley site and see if the pointed pin deal is available. From what I've seen here, a ball check won't work in the 4165 nozzle circuit and doesn't show one on the "blow up"???.......Why the captured ball in one bowl, and the umbrella deal in the other?.....Ray
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
612 Posts
OK guys, who is really up on the Holleys?

Q #1. Accelerator nozzle check ball/pin.
On a 4165 series carb, (spread bore DP) what type of nozzle check is used. The little balls, or the pointed pins? I'm rebuilding one, and it had neither. The primary pump reservoir has the orange/pinkish umbrella type check valve below the bowl to prevent pushing fuel back into the bowl when the pump works. But nothing under the nozzle screws to keep the fuel "charge" up in the circuit at the nozzle....I had some check balls from kits over the years, but the .058/.062, (1/16th inch) ball just falls through. I would think the pointed pin was used on these models, but neither pri, or sec had anything under the screws. Am I to assume these parts were left out by the previous owner? Also, the secondary bowl has the old style ball check in the reservoir.....

Q#2. I have the same missing part on two 660 center squirters. There was nothing under the center nozzle of either carb.....(EDIT, OK I looked at the other 660, and it DOES have a pointed pin thingy under the nozzle, so disregard the 660 question...)

I know without those check balls/pins, the accelerator pump circuit drains back and causes either a "pop" or a stumble when you nail it.....So, which type was used in the 4165 series, and the list 4224 C/squirt carbs......Ray

PS: The "blow up" of the 4165 supplied with the kit shows nothing under the nozzle screws???
Pretty sure there is not supposed to be any check ball up at the squirters. The fuel can't drain back if it cant push back into the bowl from the pump body.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
So, do you think the umbrella deal holds the "charge" at the top of the circuit? And yeah, this one's primary bowl has the umbrella deal, and the secondary has the captured ball seal??? I guess I'll go to the Holley site and see if the pointed pin deal is available. From what I've seen here, a ball check won't work in the 4165 nozzle circuit and doesn't show one on the "blow up"???.......Why the captured ball in one bowl, and the umbrella deal in the other?.....Ray
Interesting...this one is the same...captured ball on the pri. side, umbrella on the sec. Only difference I can see is the sec. has the 5cc pump, the pri has the 3cc.
I don't think running the pointed pin will work without a seat. I have a feeling this carb didn't have anything under the nozzles. It looks like a fairly old carb...maybe something they didn't do untill later?
If you think about it, where can the fuel go in the squirter passage? I guess it would assume the same level as the fuel in the bowl? That would leave a bit of an air space in the passage just below the squirter.
What about a bigger check ball?
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
Pretty sure there is not supposed to be any check ball up at the squirters. The fuel can't drain back if it cant push back into the bowl from the pump body.
The umbrella type check in the acc pump might help prevent the fuel from draining back, but the captured check ball won't.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
Ray, I just went through my Holley stuff and found a .157 check ball...drops right in the hole like it belongs there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
612 Posts
The umbrella type check in the acc pump might help prevent the fuel from draining back, but the captured check ball won't.
I have never seen a check ball up at the squirters on a holley. What volume of fuel would be above it? not much.It would take a long time to drain out of that passage, if it would at all. while running it wouldn't go anywhere. in fact, maybe the "suction" into the engine would tend to pull it?(theoretically)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
OK, I'm getting somewhere...

The umbrella type check in the acc pump might help prevent the fuel from draining back, but the captured check ball won't.
Agreed......Why one umbrella and one captured ball?

Ray, I just went through my Holley stuff and found a .157 check ball...drops right in the hole like it belongs there.
OK, that would be a 5/32 ball, (.156). Is there a seat down there for it? I'll look around for a 5/32 BB.....

I have never seen a check ball up at the squirters on a holley. What volume of fuel would be above it? not much.It would take a long time to drain out of that passage, if it would at all. while running it wouldn't go anywhere. in fact, maybe the "suction" into the engine would tend to pull it?(theoretically)
I've never seen one work without one. It is critical to have the "charge" AT the nozzle. I think the pointed pin works better, but Holleys have had a ball there since the mid 50s..(55 Ford)..........Ray
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
I have never seen a check ball up at the squirters on a holley. What volume of fuel would be above it? not much.It would take a long time to drain out of that passage, if it would at all. while running it wouldn't go anywhere. in fact, maybe the "suction" into the engine would tend to pull it?(theoretically)
Do you men you haven't seen a round check ball, or not even the pointed pin? With nothing to restrict the fow, it would only take seconds for the fuel to drain from the passage under the squirter enough to equal the float level. The fuel level throughout the carb will stay at the same level as in the fuel in the float bowl. That's just the properties of a liquid. The issue of suction into the engine (called acc. pump pull over) can be a problem, but that's why they designed the anti-pull over squirter nozzles (the big rectangular looking ones) usually found on a 4165.
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
Agreed......Why one umbrella and one captured ball?



OK, that would be a 5/32 ball, (.156). Is there a seat down there for it? I'll look around for a 5/32 BB.....



I've never seen one work without one. It is critical to have the "charge" AT the nozzle. I think the pointed pin works better, but Holleys have had a ball there since the mid 50s..(55 Ford)..........Ray
No, there doesn't seem to be a seat, but I'm thinking it might seat against the horizontal passage through the TB into the metering block. These carbs use the transfer tubes, and it might seat against that...gravity sure wouldn't have any effect there, though, would it. I can't see it not having something.

And your guess is as good as mine on the two different pump checks...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,169 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Holley tech line

No, there doesn't seem to be a seat, but I'm thinking it might seat against the horizontal passage through the TB into the metering block. These carbs use the transfer tubes, and it might seat against that...gravity sure wouldn't have any effect there, though, would it. I can't see it not having something.

And your guess is as good as mine on the two different pump checks...
I think I'll ruin somebody's day at the Holley Tech line tomorrow:|err...Ray
 

·
steelcomp was here
Joined
·
26,528 Posts
You must be doing someone a favor... :)st :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
612 Posts
Do you men you haven't seen a round check ball, or not even the pointed pin? With nothing to restrict the fow, it would only take seconds for the fuel to drain from the passage under the squirter enough to equal the float level. The fuel level throughout the carb will stay at the same level as in the fuel in the float bowl. That's just the properties of a liquid. The issue of suction into the engine (called acc. pump pull over) can be a problem, but that's why they designed the anti-pull over squirter nozzles (the big rectangular looking ones) usually found on a 4165.
I stand corrected-The 4150/4160 carbs do have a check ball, but not the 4165
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
612 Posts
Holley seems to do some strange things with the check valves-I just looked at an exploded view of a 4500 and it shows a rubber check valve in the primary pump, but nothing in the secondary pump. BUT, it has a check pin/valve at the squirter in the secondaries and none in the primaries....
The 4165 shows a rubber check valve in the primary pump, none in the secondary, and no check balls/pins at all at the squirters.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top