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"The" masheenist
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5,444 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
When we stop making products, we will have nothing left to sell.

This is becoming real dangerous when we import nearly everything we used to make ourselves.

Brian



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081203/ts_nm/us_usa_economy

NEW YORK (Reuters) – Private employers slashed an unexpectedly high 250,000 jobs in November, the most in seven years, while the service sector that powers most of the economy posted its worst slump on record.

The reports on Wednesday were the latest signs that the job market is nowhere near a bottom as the U.S. recession enters its second year and the entire economy was still in a state of trauma after the worst financial crisis in a generation.

"The severe damage to the service industry is another indication of the extraordinary force of this recession," said Pierre Ellis, senior economist at Decision Economics in New York.

The Institute for Supply Management said its non-manufacturing index came in at 37.3, the worst in the gauge's 11-year history and below October's already weak 44.4.

It was well below the level of 50 that separates expansion from contraction and much worse than the median forecast of 42.0 expected in a Reuters poll of 71 economists.

Every major category in the ISM survey hit a record low, particularly bad news for the United States, where 80 percent of economic activity is driven by the service sector, including businesses such as banks, airlines, hotels and restaurants.

U.S. stocks extended losses after the surprisingly weak ISM, while U.S. Treasury debt prices, which benefit more from poor economic conditions, turned positive, and the dollar was at session lows versus the yen.

NOT A RAY OF LIGHT

ADP Employer Services, in the first reading of the job market since the U.S. economy was formally declared to have entered recession, said private companies cut jobs for a fourth straight month in November.

The 250,000 jobs lost significantly exceeded the 200,000 median forecast of 24 economists polled by Reuters.

As in the ISM, there was little in the ADP report, jointly developed with Macroeconomic Advisers LLC, to spur optimism.

"It's impossible to find any ray of light here," said Joel Prakken, chairman of Macroeconomic Advisers in St. Louis, Missouri.

ADP revised October's private job cuts upward to 179,000 from the originally reported loss of 157,000.

The more definitive U.S. government November payrolls report is due on Friday, when the Labor Department is expected to say nonfarm employment fell by 320,000, the eleventh straight month of losses, according to a Reuters poll.

However, the swoon in the ISM's employment indicator suggested to some a more dire outcome in the payrolls report.

"This is consistent with payrolls falling by about 500,000; let's hope it is very wrong," said Ian Shepherdson, chief U.S. economist at High Frequency Economics in Valhalla, New York.

The unemployment rate is forecast to have risen to 6.8 percent, the highest since October 1993, from 6.5 percent in October.

The ADP report was the first snapshot of the labor market following the declaration on Monday that the U.S. economy has been in recession for a full year.

The National Bureau of Economic Research, the official arbiter of economic cycles, said the contraction began in December 2007, and forecasts suggest it will rival or even exceed the downturns of the 1970s and 80s, the longest in the period since World War II.

In the lone silver lining to Wednesday's slew of data, interest rates on U.S. mortgage loans fell to an average 5.47 percent last week, their lowest in more than three years, and mortgage applications surged by a record amount.

The jump in mortgage activity was an indication that a new Federal Reserve program to buy $500 billion of mortgage-backed securities from home-financing facilitators Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae was helping bring down home loan costs, which had stayed stubbornly high, impeding a recovery in the slumping U.S. housing market.

In another signal that U.S. employers were making do with fewer workers, non-farm productivity was slightly stronger than initially forecast in the third quarter. Still the pace of growth remained the slowest this year as output saw its biggest decline in seven years, the Labor Department said.

(Additional reporting by Lucia Mutikani, Julie Haviv, Vivianne Rodrigues and Ellen Freilich; Editing by James Dalgleish)
 

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When a country consumes more than it produce, there is no hope in sight. We'll see how Obama going to create the millions of manufacturing jobs that lost over the decades.
It's going to be a long haul:|err
Canada's trading imbalance with China for way too long is staggering too.
 

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Red Blooded American
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Obama's new taxation plan will cripple the remainder of productive Americans. We're soon going to have millions of desk workers with nothing to administer.
You can keep the Change!
 

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28 Powerplay - HP500
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1,399 Posts
I used to always hear about "trade deficit". Have we just given up, as it never seems to be mentioned anymore, as we clearly aren't exporting a damn thing.

Appearantly over 60% of the country wants to let the remaining large mfg industry just dissappear overnight, leaving us with basically nothing.:mad:

What the hell are the "money passers" (Wall St) supposed to pass around when nobody has any?
 
G

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Always buy American made durable goods.
Your house, condo, and boat are American made, why not your cars, washer, dryer?

BUT - what the hell do we do with TV's, PC's, and cell phones?? i have no clue.

All the other stuff just do your best to support good American made products, key word "good". Don't buy crap, American or otherwise.

I make an honest effort. This is where I live. China & Japan might be a once in a lifetime vacation destination, but I wouldn't want to live there. Let them buy American made products and then maybe I'll share a little more :D
 
G

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Obama's new taxation plan will cripple the remainder of productive Americans. We're soon going to have millions of desk workers with nothing to administer.
You can keep the Change!
Nobama keeps saying he's going to create jobs. More workers, more this, more that. If he can pull it off (but not at my expense) then bravo!

Show me the money.
 

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If the US continues to be a hostile business environment, its only going to get worse. One could only hope that eventually people will pull their collective heads out of there ass and demand some changes.
 

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Nuclear Powered
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Soon...we'll all be sneeking into China and working those jobs the Chinese don't want.
 

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I do try to by US but it's no secret it's been a global market for awhile now, so only the global leaders and strong will survive.

Protectionism behavior has finally caught up with the big 3 and “the day” that management always told the union was coming is here. The global competition is not knocking at their door, it broke it down and is sitting in their kitchen eating out of their fridge.
 

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Administrator
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If the US continues to be a hostile business environment, its only going to get worse. One could only hope that eventually people will pull their collective heads out of there ass and demand some changes.
I do try to by US but it's no secret it's been a global market for awhile now, so only the global leaders and strong will survive.

Protectionism behavior has finally caught up with the big 3 and “the day” that management always told the union was coming is here. The global competition is not knocking at their door, it broke it down and is sitting in their kitchen eating out of their fridge.

agree. The cattle have long ago left the barn with regard to any concern by our government or other governments and the American populace for the most part. Unions in certain industries have certainly driven labor costs up unrealistically so large companies like the car companies can't compete. But this is true in many industries that have long departed American shores for more favorable manufacturing environments elsewhere. Partially do to US over regulation and partially due to other countries under regulation or no regulation, dirt poor wages etc. It's a dog eat dog world (example car companies) and they must compete with the likes of Toyota and Honda here at home who have far more efficient factories, lower labor costs, and better handle on what cars the average American commuter wants to drive. If they can't compete they will be gone or bought by China or other and no amount of bailout money will save them. To be able to compete they need to be able to pay workers reasonable wages and also need to get in tune with what people want to buy. Honda and Toyota are not having trouble selling their cars here. Wake up big 3. The unions while guaranteeing their workers great wages are one of several big factors driving the companies out of business. After they're gone and everyone is unemployed and pensions lost, replaced by Chinese workers in the Beijing GM plant perhaps the American government and populace will see the light.

As a side not what I find really interesting (and quite disturbing) is the amount of attention and scrutinization Congress is putting on the 35 billion car company bailout when just these past days and weeks it has given 700 billion to financial companies, 300 billion of that to Citibank alone, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, a host of others that imo all did worse shit than the car companies. All with little fanfare or scrutinization. I guess it's who you sleep with in government that gets the dough. What about small businesses that shoulder the brunt of employment and work in this country. Companies like mine that are definitely feeling the effects of all the above in customers just not spending any money? I've laid people off, cut hours, on and on. Small business as a whole is certainly bigger than any of the above. Where is our bailout you government idiots? [/rant]

Back to China crap: Case in point, Havasu this last weekend, was driving around town, everything looked pretty dead, not to many cars around, at stores, etc. Stopped at Walmart on the way out of town because the Subway shop is inside it and the place was friggin packed, people haulin crap outta there by the friggin basket load. I hear their building another Super Walmart in Parker soon. So much for Parker's small businesses. I didn't realize there were enough residents in Parker to even support that size store. I don't like the scenario but I certainly don't have any answer to it either. I'm up against it in the parts industry too. As soon as we make a part with any volume it's knocked off, and anything with substantial volume is knocked off by a competitor making it in China. We've had to have a few things made in China to compete but I certainly don't like doing it. It sometimes comes down to that or just don't make the product cause you cannot make any money on it going up against a competitor making it in China. Some China stuff is not crap but you have to be very careful.

Bottom line is not to many Americans as a whole appear to be too concerned about buyin China crap these days other than perhaps the ones posting on this thread. Stores like Walmart and Target are booming. Honda, Toyota, all the electronic manufacturers, the list is long. I find it interesting, Walmart and Target, both American owned companies, specializing in China products. How does any small business compete with these giants? The majority of Americans buy on price for consumer goods, period. Larger stuff maybe not so much, but the typical crap that comes from Walmart and Target I see few not buying it or shopping there. Personally I put China crap back on the shelf if there is any reasonable alternative, even if the alternative costs a little more. I rarely go to Walmart but do got to Target. I read the labels and try to avoid the China and other third world offerings.

Clothing...ok there's another can of worms...
 

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We just need to stop giving it all away. Screw the countries that don't want our exports. Any import needs to be taxed to the point where domestic manufacturing makes sense. The tax from imports goes into the general budget to cover my beer. :D These countries can't survive without without exporting to us! Look at the world stock markets, they ride as we ride.
 

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Large Member
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agree. The cattle have long ago left the barn with regard to any concern by our government or other governments and the American populace for the most part. Unions in certain industries have certainly driven labor costs up unrealistically so large companies like the car companies can't compete. But this is true in many industries that have long departed American shores for more favorable manufacturing environments elsewhere. Partially do to US over regulation and partially due to other countries under regulation or no regulation, dirt poor wages etc. It's a dog eat dog world (example car companies) and they must compete with the likes of Toyota and Honda here at home who have far more efficient factories, lower labor costs, and better handle on what cars the average American commuter wants to drive. If they can't compete they will be gone or bought by China or other and no amount of bailout money will save them. To be able to compete they need to be able to pay workers reasonable wages and also need to get in tune with what people want to buy. Honda and Toyota are not having trouble selling their cars here. Wake up big 3. The unions while guaranteeing their workers great wages are one of several big factors driving the companies out of business. After they're gone and everyone is unemployed and pensions lost, replaced by Chinese workers in the Beijing GM plant perhaps the American government and populace will see the light.

As a side not what I find really interesting (and quite disturbing) is the amount of attention and scrutinization Congress is putting on the 35 billion car company bailout when just these past days and weeks it has given 700 billion to financial companies, 300 billion of that to Citibank alone, AIG, Fannie, Freddie, a host of others that imo all did worse shit than the car companies. All with little fanfare or scrutinization. I guess it's who you sleep with in government that gets the dough. What about small businesses that shoulder the brunt of employment and work in this country. Companies like mine that are definitely feeling the effects of all the above in customers just not spending any money? I've laid people off, cut hours, on and on. Small business as a whole is certainly bigger than any of the above. Where is our bailout you government idiots? [/rant]

Back to China crap: Case in point, Havasu this last weekend, was driving around town, everything looked pretty dead, not to many cars around, at stores, etc. Stopped at Walmart on the way out of town because the Subway shop is inside it and the place was friggin packed, people haulin crap outta there by the friggin basket load. I hear their building another Super Walmart in Parker soon. So much for Parker's small businesses. I didn't realize there were enough residents in Parker to even support that size store. I don't like the scenario but I certainly don't have any answer to it either. I'm up against it in the parts industry too. As soon as we make a part with any volume it's knocked off, and anything with substantial volume is knocked off by a competitor making it in China. We've had to have a few things made in China to compete but I certainly don't like doing it. It sometimes comes down to that or just don't make the product cause you cannot make any money on it going up against a competitor making it in China. Some China stuff is not crap but you have to be very careful.

Bottom line is not to many Americans as a whole appear to be too concerned about buyin China crap these days other than perhaps the ones posting on this thread. Stores like Walmart and Target are booming. Honda, Toyota, all the electronic manufacturers, the list is long. I find it interesting, Walmart and Target, both American owned companies, specializing in China products. How does any small business compete with these giants? The majority of Americans buy on price for consumer goods, period. Larger stuff maybe not so much, but the typical crap that comes from Walmart and Target I see few not buying it or shopping there. Personally I put China crap back on the shelf if there is any reasonable alternative, even if the alternative costs a little more. I rarely go to Walmart but do got to Target. I read the labels and try to avoid the China and other third world offerings.

Clothing...ok there's another can of worms...
Well said...
I think it comes down to competition. People in America want less expensive items. American manufactures can't compete. I was in Manufacturing for 15 years. Only to see it all moved from the US to other countries. For example. I worked for Corona Clipper. We made most of our products in house in Corona, Ca. They have since moved all there manufacturing to Mexico. I was reading something on line that said Ford is assembling cars in China now. I think those cars are to be sold in China. We can't tax imports. If we did we couldn't afford the price increase in the products we taxed. Would people pay a $1,000 for a run of the mill table lamp? I think if you look around a majority of Americans buy overseas products. If this were not the case Walmart and Target would be out of business. The Big 3 that's another story.
 

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Honda and Toyota are not having trouble selling their cars here.

Mike , Honda and Toyota sales are down as well but they'll survive. My friend works at the Toyota wheel plant here and they're way down on production right now. hanging on a thread.I saw on BBC last night that thousands of Toyos and Benzes are sitting at Long Beach right now as well , hoping for the economy to turn around to sell them :)hand.




Back to China crap:

I read the labels and try to avoid the China and other third world offerings. Me too , but it's a loosing battle:|err

The scary part about chinese made parts as you mentioned, they're not necessarily crap but still way way cheaper to produce over there than here.Case and point, we have dozens of local vendors making numerous parts for us including just one particular part we had made by a local machinist [ similar to Wsuwrhr] who made it for us for the past ten years or so for around $65 a piece.He has decided to go to Barbados for a vacation for a few months
and while we needed these parts pronto the planners decided to contact the factory we also have in China to reproduce this part. Needless to say, those fockers produced this part for $10 a piece in no time , including shipping over here. There's no way you could tell the difference in quality.The poor schmuck probably lost the contract now to make this part. Dog eats dog world:|err
 

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Banne'd
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China is screwing them selves by selling junk that kills animals and people. And it's the jack off's in government that let the flood gates open for cheap imports. Not to mention asshole companies like walmart that force the US companies to lower the price of goods or else they will buy from China, it was in the news. The GM test track in East Mesa was/is moving to mexico. Campnies like this that out source need to pay a fine for doing so. BoA was going to outsource 150 jobs this year, they desided not to, good for them. Jack off's like AOL, Cisco and the like that outsource should pay fines for cutting jobs in America to save a penny.

My brother works for GM, hell I worked for GM at one time. My brother works nights, and has a bed to sleep in. I guess a buzzer "might" go off and he has to get up and shut it off, that's "might". He sleeps all freaking night on the clock. My wifes cousin works for Chrysler in Mich, he makes over $48.00 an hour. Head of some department. Using the private jet, getting wined and dined. It's bed time.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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A little off topic, but I was at a friends shop today, he makes some trick ATV parts, one is a quad race muffler. It's trick I asked him if he has a patent on it. He started laughing.

He told me from what he has read and heard the Chinese have people sitting in the US patent office reviewing new penitent. He said it cost something like $ 30.00 to review a patent. If the think it looks good they'll takes enough notes on it to copy it and they send it (the notes) off to China. Don't know if it's true or not :)bulb

Sometime last year Bruce Crower told me the US Government wasn't doing anything to protect intellectual property rights. He was ticked about a couple of things he was trying to get a patient on.

Sleeper CP
 

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Here's my favorite personal example of how American Companies
are screwing up:

I deliberately went to Harbor Freight to buy a $50 electric winch rated 2500 lbs to use with my forklift. I deliberately wanted a cheap, light duty piece of crap because it was all I needed for the jobs in mind. Obviously made in China but not an issue for this job.

Then I went to buy a winch for my Rhino. It too was rated 2500 lbs and I bought a nice name brand Mile Marker winch for close to $300. What really pissed me off was seeing: "Made in China" on this piece of crap. Oh I know what Mile Marker will say: "But it was built to our exacting standards and specifications". To which I say bullshit. In fact, they could probably have charged me even a $100 more by proudly stating "Made in America". I definitely am willing to pay for quality, but not when it is made in China.
I don't know what the point of purchasing this winch from Mile Marker was but I've got it now so I live with it.

Pesky Varmint
 

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I was looking at a Little Giant ladder at Costco the other day. It was selling alot cheaper then in the past. The label said "Made in PRC". Like we don't know what that is. We did this to ourselves because we demand a cheap ass price over quality. I drove around half the day looking for a PVC cutter that was not made in China. I finally found one at a commercial landscape supply place and bought it (made in Japan). Couldn't find a Klein anywhere but online. If there is anyway possible, the only thing I buy that's Chinese is Kung Pao Chicken.
 
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