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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you all know I have a 1959 Biesemeyer 4pt hydro. After my best effort over the last couple years of trying to get this boat to run without it trying to kill me, I have to give up and reboot. So what would you do?



The boat has been re-done to the point that just a couple years ago it won ACBS Best Raceboat so we can say it’s in pretty good shape. The custom trailer under it has been done also. So here are my options.
1, Leave like it is and just keep it a trailer queen to show at the local shows.
The issue with this is I like to use my boats. Having a trailer queen with all the work to keep it nice don’t sound like much fun

2, Rebuild…..
Then the question is whether to fill the tunnel or cut the rear sponsons down to be flat with the tunnel. If I fill the tunnel then the prop shaft angle will allow for the prop to hit the hull so the struts and prop shaft will have to be dropped steepening the prop shaft angle lifting the ass even more (another issues beside of the boat being unstable because of the 4 points of contact is the boat bow steers when going faster than cruise).
If I cut the rear “sponsons” out and make the whole bottom flat with the tunnel it looks like the bottom of the boat would then be tilted up some allowing the bow to ride on the rear of the front sponsons and maybe stop it from rolling over on the nose when the power is applied.
Then there is the issue of if I do anything the original 56 year old 4pt will be lost. Good or bad there is no going back when the sawzaw comes out.

3, Just strip it and take it to the dump.

 

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well everybody knows what i would do................"sell it" :)sphss:)sphss:)sphss:)sphss:)sphss
 

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Raysoncrafter
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I'm no expert on this stuff, but have you done any experimentation with props?
 

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Sell it to someone that loves trailer queens. I'm sure there's someone that would love to have that beauty parked in the showroom/garage.


“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The US military doesn’t have that problem.”
 

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See if you can donate it to a museum. There's the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton, NY (ACBS Headquarters) which has a lot of raceboats. There's another in Wolfsboro, NH. There's the Maritime Musem in Hampton, VA.
There is the Hydroplane Museum in Seattle, but getting it there would be a problem. Maybe one of the transporters (Check the one who advertises on Scream and Fly) might have an empty load going west and they could maybe donate the ride (?)
You could put in a dummy engine (a donated cracked block and heads, etc) so you're not giving away good parts, and so that nobody is going to take it out on the water and hurt himself with it.

Just an idea. From a historical standpoint you shouldn't cut it up, yet if it's a dangerous design it should not be run.

Eric
 

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Can't cure stupid
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Questions

Because I don't know, I'll ask questions...

What is it doing wrong?

Is it not taking a set?

Is it hopping?

Does it not turn?


You're making it sound like it is dangerous to drive so I'm curious.


It looks beautiful. Nice work on the restoration.
 

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Don't crush it... It has historic value to our sport. I know its not easy to keep because it takes up space and all... but it can be cruised around at low speeds for shows.
 

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Cocoloco
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Please do NOT crush it...

Some of you all know I have a 1959 Biesemeyer 4pt hydro. After my best effort over the last couple years of trying to get this boat to run without it trying to kill me, I have to give up and reboot. So what would you do?



The boat has been re-done to the point that just a couple years ago it won ACBS Best Raceboat so we can say it’s in pretty good shape. The custom trailer under it has been done also. So here are my options.
1, Leave like it is and just keep it a trailer queen to show at the local shows.
The issue with this is I like to use my boats. Having a trailer queen with all the work to keep it nice don’t sound like much fun

2, Rebuild…..
Then the question is whether to fill the tunnel or cut the rear sponsons down to be flat with the tunnel. If I fill the tunnel then the prop shaft angle will allow for the prop to hit the hull so the struts and prop shaft will have to be dropped steepening the prop shaft angle lifting the ass even more (another issues beside of the boat being unstable because of the 4 points of contact is the boat bow steers when going faster than cruise).
If I cut the rear “sponsons” out and make the whole bottom flat with the tunnel it looks like the bottom of the boat would then be tilted up some allowing the bow to ride on the rear of the front sponsons and maybe stop it from rolling over on the nose when the power is applied.
Then there is the issue of if I do anything the original 56 year old 4pt will be lost. Good or bad there is no going back when the sawzaw comes out.

3, Just strip it and take it to the dump.

This is just the kind of boat the Parker Strip museum is hoping to save from the Sawzall. This is a piece of boating history that can't be lost. Just trailer Queen for another year and we will be glad to display it with your name as restorer and savior of the history. On the performance side of it I have some experience with wind and boats. After all your issue is the amount of air under the boat at speed. Rather than go to destroying history, which at best is a risky gamble, I would go to work on the forces of wind on the boat itself. When you are at speed the boat is compressing air underneath it. This is not rocket science. There could be a couple of simple remedies rather than cutting the boat up and making it a junk yard queen in the process. First of all I would suggest a wing. Not a buy any wing and hope it works deal. You obviously want to keep this boat enough to do serious work on it. Go to a TFH or Alky racer and ask them to assist or direct you on wing placement, load and aerodynamics. There is a fulcrum point on that hydro where you can download the hull with more pressure than is being built up underneath it. Too far forward and the tail starts to skate, too far back and the front takes off. What are we talking here, 70-80 MPH? I'm going to guess that the starting point to load the boat is centered at the harmonic balancer line in the boat. The wing will need to be the width of the hull at the fulcrum point to maintain stability I think, but ask the expert who helps you. It will need end plates or vortex eliminators large enough to stabilize the boat. Probably an inch and a half larger than the wing both above and below. I would mount the wing stanchions as far outboard inside the hull as I could and make sure they were well mounted to the hull. Remember when working with wings, it's like moonshine. As far as adjustment, a little goes a long way. And it will bite you just as fast. Your boat can be photographed and entered into a computer with its weight and weight points then modeled virtually in a computer wind tunnel. Don't ask me where because anymore I have no idea. As far as another option and I don't profess to know much about it but I think it is worth a shot, go to the hydrofoil-ski guys and talk about underwater gear mounted on both undersides of the hull in the rear that might work along the lines of the hydrofoil-skis ride plate. Basically flying the hydro and maintaining contact with the water with a sort of water anchor. This might be the most fun and cool option of the two. The most reliable option at speed will be the wing I think. You have a constant source of clean energy being applied as downforce no matter the water conditions. Both of these are bolt on options that shouldn't cost a fortune. The wing is removable for showing and historic purposes also. So best of luck and save our boating heritage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I don’t think I would ever crush it (I have a yard of misfit boats and tend to want to save them) but I thought I would throw that in there to see if there was a reason to? Thinking it could have been one of those boats that even the builder wouldn’t admit to building but I do see it in Rusty’s book. Sadly Rusty passed about 6 months before I got the boat so I never had a chance to talk to him about it.
As for donations. I see what most museums do with 99.99% of the boats donated (auction) which is not the future I would like to see for the boat. As soon as someone else buys it at auction, gets on here or a board like it, most will not have the same demeanor when it comes to the history as I do and it will end up as a pile of parts and rest will be off to the land fill. If I could find a place that it would be preserved and kept I would consider it.
Most know here but I will try to give the Cliffnotes on it.
Over 40mph the boat tends to want to bow steer bad. I’ve used about every prop I can find and none help much. A two blade chopper is the best but still is not safe. I restored the boat, placing the motor as best as I could with the holes left in the rotted stringers which put it forward some. Ran it for a season doing what I could with minor weight placement changes. Still drove like a tank. The next year I took it all apart again and move everything I could as far back as possible (motor, fuel tanks, battery). When sitting still the transom now was about 4 inches lower in the water. Still no help. For that matter there was no change. She gets up, goes like a SOB but about 35/40mph the bow will start to bobble port to starboard just slightly and then builds over the next second or two to the point you are white knuckled trying to counter steer and just want to boat to stop without killing someone. The stress on the hull of this happening has to be insane on a 50+ year old boat. Another reason I don’t want to sell it to someone and they end up hurt.
Not so worried about turning being it is a drag boat but I can’t see how anyone got one up to a 130mph with one unless they were on a sheet of glass with the hand of god holding them straight.
I was talking to a former Hustler Boats engineer at the ACBS boat show this weekend (another of my misfit boats was in the show). He had done a lot of hydro racing back in the day and seemed to know what he was talking about. The line that has stuck with me is, “you don’t see any 4 legged milking stools because unless they are on a perfect surface they will rock”. That’s what got me thinking that there is no fixing this boat short of ripping the bottom off and stating over.
 

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Cocoloco
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Its all about the air under it.

Look at your drawing of the hull shape from the side. The hull is shaped like a wing from midships to tail. You were even considering cutting off the angle on the bottom. The boat literally has to be compressing the air harder and harder as it approaches the tail. Bow steering means lack of rear steering. Therefore your effort to take the weight back and hold the tail down. In car racing parlance we would say the chassis is unloading. In your case the boat is getting up so high on the prop it is walking is my guess. That's why a prop isn't fixing the problem I would say. The amount of air compressed under the boat is growing until the prop is too far out of the water. That is why I suggested the wing. Counter the force. That's all I got. Best of luck.
 

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Cocoloco
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BTW - Static Display.

Yep museums do auction boats. However legit museums take them with a contract to return them to the donor if they no longer want to display them. Your boat is far too important to sell off anyway. I did see one for sale in Parker this last year though.
 

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Sell it to someone that loves trailer queens. I'm sure there's someone that would love to have that beauty parked in the showroom/garage.


“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. The US military doesn’t have that problem.”
x2:))THumbsUp
 

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Evidently you have the good judgment to realize this is an unsafe design. I'd call it a day, pull out the hardware, and cut it up. It's a dinosaur, and not a friendly one...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Cocoloco, I hear ya. I have an engineer friend that wants to turn the whole thing into a hydrofoil. His theory is to get the whole thing out of the water and you won’t have to worry about it bucking or bow steering. Lol.
But seriously I have considered wind. I’ve run it into the wind and with the wind thinking it needs more air under the bow to add lift. Running into a hard wind only helped to push the bow down further. Running with did nothing. We have also considered running an underwater foil at the transom just to lock the ass down. Also some sort of hydraulic trim tab at the end of the front sponsons to lift the front.
The foil idea seems like something until I think of the stress on the 55 year old hull mounting points and that it would only be perfect for a single situation. Any changes and it either sucks the ass down to much or not enough. Really not sure if it could be adjusted while underway while keeping up with things.
The tab idea would lift the nose but it would run on the tabs instead of the front sponsons (in theory) but I really don’t think they would do much but make the tipping point of when it rolled over on the nose that much more drastic when it happened. Also the constant adjustments needed would be too fast for the hydraulics and the driver to keep up with.
Wings, I could put wings on it but…. The cowl on the motor tends to have some downforce but not a whole lot (run with it off once or twice) but IMHO short of a 747 wing lifting the nose out of the water I don’t wings would help much but make it super fickle when any breeze came by.
My theory is this. In my world of deep V boats we would say the hull has a “hook in it”. But instead of it being a hook by the transom it’s two wedges the length of the rear sponsons. The rear sponsons hang down instead of the tunnel being cut out and they give it to much up lift causing it to upset the 4 points and roll over on the nose like a hook does on a deep V. The boat being already designed to run on the 4 points, flat, with 1959 power (but like I said in 1962 someone got one up to 130+mph) a good prop and a little extra power and it lifts the ass a tiny bit higher then riding on the rear sponsons and then the front left digs in a little as it pushed over on that side but then the least resistance is on the right side so it goes that way and in a fraction of a second things start to get real ugly as it chases the least resistance from side to side.
A couple of other observations,
The front sponsons are real flat from the ends to about 3 feet forward. I wonder if I made them bigger (deeper/hang down more) and made them with more of an angle so they are creating lift all the way to the ends instead of riding on a flat surface would that help? But again that means changing the boat.
It’s almost like the boat has a lot of water in it and the more power you give it the more the water flows to the front and

 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Just curious,Do you have skegs on the sponsons?
None

There is a lot of pictures of the hull in this movie of the first rebuild.

 
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