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Discussion Starter #1
well just found out last night that my new Shafiroff mill has low tension oil Rings.

this is new area for me?

i am told i need a Vacum pump with low tension rings,well if you ask any racer they all say you need one they help make power and better seal,Blaahhh blaaah.

this motor will not be raced in competition only the occasional shadow racing(okay a lot of that!)

Friendly competition and such.

i will be hard on the motor and put a lot of hours a season on it.



if i have to have a vacum pump what do i need?

if not thats great,lol!!!

any help i will appreciate it.thanks Travis
 

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With low tension rings the vacuum pump not only helps with ring seal, but more importantly keeps oil out of the cylinder. Oil getting past the rings could lead to detonation! I run .043/.043/3mm rings in my 600" BBC with a 9lb oil ring. The top is gappless, second is napier and the piston has lateral gas ports. I keep 10" in the crankcase via a vacuum pump and it works great. If you know what rings are in the motor call the mfg and discuss whether you need a pump or not. Some ring companies offer standard, low and ultra low tension. The standard and low tension don't require vacuum while the ultra low are intended to be run on motors with vacuum. Not saying this is the case with yours, but it may very well be.

Craig
 

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Discussion Starter #3
i called Shafiroff and they said it had low tension rings(size is 3/16 oil ring)and it would be a good idea to run a pump,of course they said it was always a good idea,lol!!
 

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Do some research on the net in regards to vacuum pumps as there are several suppliers out there providing kits. The main components are the pump, regulator, crank mandrel / pulley and a tank to expel the exhaust. I am running a Star Machine pump and their tank. I also used their baffle inside the valve cover to attach the -12 line. I am using pulley's from Star as well and the crank mandrel is from Peterson. The mandrel is custom made so I could retain my accessory drive pulley and Peterson was very good to work with. The Star Pump has the vacuum regulator built onto the pump so once you build vacuum to the desired setting it pulls ambient air through the pump to help keep it cool. The canister from Star is a two chamber system that filters the pump inlet and exhaust flow. Pulling through the valve cover with the baffle there is very little to no oil in the canister and zero oil mist in the engine bay.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
how much vacum does a person know his motor needs?

70 views and you are the only 1 helping!

thanks feller!


i need some better ;pics of set-ups if anyone has any?

thanks Travis
 

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Amount of vacuum needed isn't much typically. 5" will likely keep the oil out of the chamber and provide a nice HP gain assuming the rings are low enough tension that the vacuum helps them seal better. I run 10" and don't have issues with pulling oil into my canister so I call it good. Many experts say above 14" or so will potentially result in wrist pin oil starvation which is obviously something to be avoided. I run coated pins so I can run more vacuum, but at levels higher than 12" I get a little oil in the pump / canister and I cannot really notice any gain so I've set it at 10". With a wet sump there will be slightly less oil pressure with vacuum also and the more vacuum you run the more pressure loss will occur. There are guys running high vacuum levels up to and exceeding 25", but they are likely dry sumped and have numerous things like coated pins, sprayers and slightly larger clearances to help the pins live.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
found some pics on yellow bullet but they are for cars.

it looks like the damn Mandrel pulley is what is going to screw me over!!!!!!

i have a back seat in my 18 and it is already moved forward b.c of the Ratchet.if i have to move it forward 3 or more inches ill be totally screwed my kids wont be midgets forever:angry:

i looked at GZ motorsports pumps and they have some nice kits and have general guide lines on which pump to use,ill guess i will call Shafiroff back and ask what kinda vacuum they recommend?


this sucks:angry:
 

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Amount of vacuum needed isn't much typically. 5" will likely keep the oil out of the chamber and provide a nice HP gain assuming the rings are low enough tension that the vacuum helps them seal better. I run 10" and don't have issues with pulling oil into my canister so I call it good. .
I am going to disagree with this just a little. Ideally, you need to pull more vac in the pan than you are in the manifold. I agree with WV, too much and you looking at potential problems with wrist pin and possibly valve guide oiling below 12" in a pleasure/endurance setup. At the same time, real windage benefits seem to start below 12". But as far a HP gains from a low tension ring, you only need to pull more vac than the manifold at any given RPM.

OR

Run a blower and keep it in boost all the time:wink2: The ring doesn't know the pan is in a depression. It only knows the pressure above it is higher than the pressure below it. It strictly a matter of pressure differential. No the crank and the windage know if the is a depression in the pan or not, But the ring does't.



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I've never had this caliber of motor before, but here's my question:

Would running those rings with pump really out perform (HP) a motor with normal rings and the lack of parasitic drag of the pump PLUS the vacuum PULLING on the bottoms of the pistons as they are going UP? I suppose it's possible that the forces cancel each other since the (let's say) 10" is also helping the pistons come DOWN?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
when i talked to Shafiroff(Vinny) this morning.i asked him if my motor was set up for vacuum pump he said YES?
i went threw my build sheets and it says 1/16 1/16 and low tension oil ring 3/16.

i asked him if i had to and he said well it is the best case scenario.

he said if i didnt be sure have the motor vented adequately?so it doesn't build up to much pressure and start blowing oil out and gaskets?

but i would benefit from the pump.

my valve covers came with bungs welded in them already 1 on each side in the front,looks like -10 fittings and the covers have build in baffles around the bungs.

i would love to stay away from the pump all togethor but im afraid i might have problems?

yes i am running O/T heads but im not welding bungs in them b/c it will ruin my new black coating.


the sheet does not say anything other than low tension rings?not ultra low and he said nothing about ultra low either?



this is all new to me!!!??

i have been trying to research off and on all day only to get pissed and depressed,lol!!!


it seems anything in general over 14-15 inches and you could have wrist pin problems.

what im seeing is 10-12 is pretty good idea?


WTF have i gotten into again:hmmm:

Travis.
 

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I've never had this caliber of motor before, but here's my question:

Would running those rings with pump really out perform (HP) a motor with normal rings and the lack of parasitic drag of the pump PLUS the vacuum PULLING on the bottoms of the pistons as they are going UP? I suppose it's possible that the forces cancel each other since the (let's say) 10" is also helping the pistons come DOWN?

For the most part, yes it will out HP a standard tension ring. The HP requirement for the pump is pretty low, and as the pan goes into a depression, the less HP it takes to turn. A Shop Vac makes that scream when you block the hose not because it is working harder, but working less, and the motor freewheels, and the amp draw drops. At some point the friction of the belt and the bearings is higher than the pumping effort.

Rings are the number one power drain after valve springs. And their friction isn't linear. Its squares with RPM. In a low RPM 4.00 stroke, 4.250 bore deal, the gain is less than a 8000 RPM 4.60 bore deal with a 4.5 stroke. Throw in the windage of a high speed 4.5 stroke in a tiny ass BBC pan, and it gets even bigger.
So it depends on the application. In a 5000 rpm 454, not much. In a 8000 rpm 572, it can be quite a bit.



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Discussion Starter #13
my motor is a 540 sportsman deal

14-1

dynoed at 862 made 800 at 5900 and only 62 after that all the way to 6900?

they said it was very conservative he kept repeating that?


makes no difference to me the impeller will tell it all when its loaded imo.


4.25 stroke 6.5 rod.
 

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Do you have a build sheet with p/n of the ring pack? If not ask SSRE for the p/n and mfg of the ring pack. I ran JE low tension 1/16" rings for several years without a vacuum pump. In my opinion if it was truely built for a vacuum pump SSRE would have discussed this with you prior to the build. When I went vacuum pump I also changed pistons and went with a ring pack that would allow solid returns with a vacuum pump. Once you get the ring pack info we can determine how low the low tension rings are and if you NEED a vacuum pump.
 

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I've never had this caliber of motor before, but here's my question:

Would running those rings with pump really out perform (HP) a motor with normal rings and the lack of parasitic drag of the pump PLUS the vacuum PULLING on the bottoms of the pistons as they are going UP? I suppose it's possible that the forces cancel each other since the (let's say) 10" is also helping the pistons come DOWN?
Absolutely yes! As GN said the friction of the ring pack, particularly as the RPM increases is low hanging fruit in terms of HP gains. The vacuum pump does two things. One is it allows the low tension rings to seal by keeping the depression below the rings which also helps controling ring flutter at high RPM. Two the vacuum keeps oil from getting past the low tension rings and into the chamber where it could cause detonation. I guess it also does a third thing in helping control oil windage too. The next time you are building a BBC put one piston / ring pack in the motor and grab the crank snout to turn the motor over. With standard tension rings you might be able to turn the motor with one or two pistons installed. With plateau honed cylinder bores and the .043/.043/3mm low tension ring pack I could turn the motor over by grabbing the crank snout with 6 pistons installed. With 7 installed I couldn't turn the motor over without a mechanical advantage, but it shows how the concept works. Now imagine all of that linear friction at 7000 RPM! That is where the power gains come from and the pump allows this to happen.:wink2:
 

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when i talked to Shafiroff(Vinny) this morning.i asked him if my motor was set up for vacuum pump he said YES?
i went threw my build sheets and it says 1/16 1/16 and low tension oil ring 3/16.

i asked him if i had to and he said well it is the best case scenario.

he said if i didnt be sure have the motor vented adequately?so it doesn't build up to much pressure and start blowing oil out and gaskets?

but i would benefit from the pump.

my valve covers came with bungs welded in them already 1 on each side in the front,looks like -10 fittings and the covers have build in baffles around the bungs.

i would love to stay away from the pump all togethor but im afraid i might have problems?

yes i am running O/T heads but im not welding bungs in them b/c it will ruin my new black coating.


the sheet does not say anything other than low tension rings?not ultra low and he said nothing about ultra low either?



this is all new to me!!!??

i have been trying to research off and on all day only to get pissed and depressed,lol!!!


it seems anything in general over 14-15 inches and you could have wrist pin problems.

what im seeing is 10-12 is pretty good idea?


WTF have i gotten into again:hmmm:

Travis.
Someone at SSRE told you that? Really? Thats scary. There is ONE ring in each hole reasonsible for keeping pressure out of the pan. When you start thinking there is more than one, you just kidding yourself, and pissing into the wind. Its what makes zero gap 2nds such a joke. Give me a choice nbetween a zero gap second and a napier, and I'll throw the zero 2nd in the trash every time. And the very last thing a napier can be called is a compression ring.

I agree with WV, I find it hard to believe that SSRE would install low tesion rings that SHOULD have a vacuum pump, by their own admission, without discussing it with the owner. Specially in a recreational jet boat. But then, nothing SSRE does surprises me one bit. If they can build a 600 in 4.5 stroke low deck engine, they are capable of just about anything.
I can understand using them like WV, but he KNEW what he was getting into and even made a change in the built once he went to a pump.

You can't really use a header extraction system alone because you'll pull the most oil at an idle or just off idle when the header extraction system is usless. If they are going to pass oil, they will do it while its idling more than when its WOT and the manifold vac is low. You'll still have a lower pressure above the ring pack than in the pan, but it won't be as high a differential. Provided you have a damn good ventilation going, and the top ring is doing its job.

The Corvette LS7 and the Caddy CTS-V use some pretty light, thin ass rings and get away with it, but then they have been know to burn a little oil, and they have one thing going for them. A PCV!!! Don't laugh, did Grumpy Jenkins Pro Stock Vega. Just for that same reason!


travis, was this thing "custom built" or is it one of their of the shelf "sportsman 540"



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I've never had this caliber of motor before, but here's my question:

Would running those rings with pump really out perform (HP) a motor with normal rings and the lack of parasitic drag of the pump PLUS the vacuum PULLING on the bottoms of the pistons as they are going UP? I suppose it's possible that the forces cancel each other since the (let's say) 10" is also helping the pistons come DOWN?
The rings account for something like 75% of the friction in a running engine. If you can reduce the drag on the bore by 50% yet maintain the ring seal you just make some power.

S CP
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
okay Sorry guys i did not buy the motor directly from them or order it from them.

was custom built for this East coast Eddie feller!

i bought it off of a guy that got it in a project car that went belly up on the deal.

i talked with SSRE prior to buying and have since buying they have been helpful to some extent and i spent no money with them!i think they are tired of me calling,lol!!!

the motor has set since 4 of last year,has break in time and 3 dyno runs only still has break in oil in it.


i have all invoices and part numbers,plus other things that came with the mill when bought new by the original owner.

here is what it has

weisco forged 14-1 pistons.

here is the front page of the invoice showing part #s look towards the bottom.

blown mill.jpg
top ring SSBR18PF191
2nd ring SSRBT10302
SS4500 low oil ring,4.500 3/16

i got a really good deal on the motor and im excited about it.

just bummed if it needs the Pump?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
on the website it says Total seal Plasma moly ring set.

but that is with the regular JE/SRP 13.5 pistons this motor has the upgraded piston and rod package.

dont know if that changes it or not?

Fockers need a 24 hour hotline for me to call and question them,lol!!!!
 

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Travis, I would throw the thing in and run it. Its not going to smoke, but it may use a little oil. The more it idles, the more itwill use. I don't like oil in the chamber because it does promote detonation, but with 14 to 1, I imagine you'll be using some pretty decent fuel.
Like I said, its not that oil gets PUSHED into the chamber, or that it gets pulled in, its the total combined pressure difference between the pan and the cylinder that moves the oil past the rings. High vac or hi pan pressure will get it done. You can't avoid the vac at an idle, but you can do what ever it takes to keep pan pressure to a minimum when the vac does drop at WOT.

You only have a low tension oil ring. Its not as though you have a low tension oil ring AND and back cut, low tension napier second. You'll be making the 2nd ring work over time. With the vacuum pump, your helping pull oil through the oil ring and piston back into the pan. With out it, any oil that gets past the oil ring has to be dealt with by the 2nd ring, and if its gets to be too much, it hydroplanes on the film and lets it get by.

A damn good pan and windage screen is a big help also.



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