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Discussion Starter #1
With all the threads about MSD ignition problems I have to send out a praise to the MSD Ignition Tester PN 8995.. I fought starting the boat out on the rope every pass this last weekend.. We tried to fire her on the last pass of the day to head to the lanes and she wouldn't fire.. We started trouble shooting it and I put the borrowed tester that Scott Cone aloud me to use on an interim basis and found that the magnetic wheel went bad.. We could have easily spent an hour or so swaping out coils and boxes but I put the tester on and it verified the box and coil were good. My oldman verified, not by choice, that it was good also:D. For anyone running MSD ignition with a pick up I suggest you pick one up.. Sorry if this is useless, not sure how many people know one exist!!! I also found by changing the magnetic wheel the ignition timing changed by 4*..
 

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With all the threads about MSD ignition problems I have to send out a praise to the MSD Ignition Tester PN 8995.. I fought starting the boat out on the rope every pass this last weekend.. We tried to fire her on the last pass of the day to head to the lanes and she wouldn't fire.. We started trouble shooting it and I put the borrowed tester that Scott Cone aloud me to use on an interim basis and found that the magnetic wheel went bad.. We could have easily spent an hour or so swaping out coils and boxes but I put the tester on and it verified the box and coil were good. My oldman verified, not by choice, that it was good also:D. For anyone running MSD ignition with a pick up I suggest you pick one up.. Sorry if this is useless, not sure how many people know one exist!!! I also found by changing the magnetic wheel the ignition timing changed by 4*..
Huge time saver. And they can be used to verify elec tachs as well. But then you can always go the cheap route and let pops tell you if its OK:D

Stix, I have learned any time you change any component in the system, the dizzy, crank trigger wheel, box, anything, double check the timing. We run a redundent backup system, and have to double check the timing on both boxes to verify both boxes are the same.
Very seldom they are. So now we run one system off the crank trigger with the timing set there, and the other off the dizzy set seperately.



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Discussion Starter #3
GN, completely agree. Interesting you run that type of set up but makes since. We had a hard time believing the wheel was bad.. We took it off and measured voltage just to make sure and sure enough the new wheel deflected my Simpson quite a bit more (very small amount) than the old one.. Pretty neat that you can mimic the motor running at a given RPM.. Note to self, don't pull the screw driver to far from the coil while testing or it'll bite!!!;)
 

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The MSD tester is also excellent to help someone in setting up and learning to use the playback tachometer.
It is much easier to run the tester and go through the various steps than to run the motor and go through the various steps. It is also a lot quieter.
 

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Well, you have an intersting issue Tim.
1) The wheel is directional. It must turn the right direction. Does not make sense to me, I guess it is polarity of magnets. Or put another way, front must be front.
2) The pickup could have a wire issue. Air gap is somewhat critical too.
I don't know that the wheel itself could be an issue. I have had the pins in the connector loosen after many, many times of connecting and disconnecting. This caused misses especially at low rpm. Then as rpm came up (and probably vibration) it cleared up.
The pickup simply generates an AC voltage.
Wags

OR anything that causes magnet issues could cause the magnets to lose charge. Thus, no ac signal.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The wheel on a crank trigger is a piece of aluminum with 4 magnets. How or what can go bad on it? My engine acted up last weekend at KDBA race and thinking this may be the problem or just real bad air.

Tim
Can't explain why it went bad either.. This wheel was 20+ years old.. Boat was very hard to start all weekend.. Even missed a call because it got to the point where we coudn't start it for the warm up call..

What type of issues were you experiencing? Besides using the tester we were able to take the pickup out of the bracket and cycle it back and forth across the magnet.. The old wheel would not produce a spark.. We got the spare (always keep 2 of everything) and did the same thing on the new wheel and we were able to produce a spark.. If you have a simpson meter you can see the meter deflect slightly on the 1v. setting.. We've had some ignition issues in the past so let us know what you had and maybe we can help..
 

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The wheel on a crank trigger is a piece of aluminum with 4 magnets. How or what can go bad on it? My engine acted up last weekend at KDBA race and thinking this may be the problem or just real bad air.

Tim
if you haven't already, check every bolt that holds the engine in the boat and make sure they're tight. make sure the bolts holding the pickup in place are tight. other thing, check your distributor gear and make sure it's 100% good. either one of these things can make you think everything's good to go on the trailer. but when the engine's loaded, cause issues. don't ask how i know.
 
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What happened is the first pass I went 8.84. Ihad to change my prop back to my old one that has 1" more pitch. That prop and this engine have run 8.90s. Coming back to the ramp it didn't want to idle. It was lazy out of the hole and ran a 9.32. Sunday it idled fine. First round Sunday it was slow out of the hole, took it's time to get to 7400, then I hit second gear and it seemed to haul and turned a 9.06. With my .955 rt, I was on the trailer. I've checked the ignition timing, the cam timing, valve lash and did a leak down and all checks good. I'm thinking the air must have been the worse I've run in.

The reason I asked about the wheel was Vince said his dad verified he had spark and the wheel was bad. I was thinking if the wheel was bad, there would be no spark or maybe a weak one.

Tim
 

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What happened is the first pass I went 8.84. Ihad to change my prop back to my old one that has 1" more pitch. That prop and this engine have run 8.90s. Coming back to the ramp it didn't want to idle. It was lazy out of the hole and ran a 9.32. Sunday it idled fine. First round Sunday it was slow out of the hole, took it's time to get to 7400, then I hit second gear and it seemed to haul and turned a 9.06. With my .955 rt, I was on the trailer. I've checked the ignition timing, the cam timing, valve lash and did a leak down and all checks good. I'm thinking the air must have been the worse I've run in.

The reason I asked about the wheel was Vince said his dad verified he had spark and the wheel was bad. I was thinking if the wheel was bad, there would be no spark or maybe a weak one.

Tim
i could be wrong (although i don't think so), but if the wheel is -going- bad, i think the performnce symptom would be somewhat different than what you're describing. a distributor gear, even running a crank trigger, can have a negative effect on timing (even though it's not supposed to). but even saying that, the symptom would be different. timing can look great on a trailer, and if something isn't really tight, can change under heavy load.
but this sounds more fuelish than electic. you wouldn't happn to have data, where you could overlay passes and see exactly what rpm was doing differently on that last pass, do you???:)
just sounds more like a fuelpump /carb issue, like it was leanng a bit too much....
 

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Discussion Starter #11
What happened is the first pass I went 8.84. Ihad to change my prop back to my old one that has 1" more pitch. That prop and this engine have run 8.90s. Coming back to the ramp it didn't want to idle. It was lazy out of the hole and ran a 9.32. Sunday it idled fine. First round Sunday it was slow out of the hole, took it's time to get to 7400, then I hit second gear and it seemed to haul and turned a 9.06. With my .955 rt, I was on the trailer. I've checked the ignition timing, the cam timing, valve lash and did a leak down and all checks good. I'm thinking the air must have been the worse I've run in.

The reason I asked about the wheel was Vince said his dad verified he had spark and the wheel was bad. I was thinking if the wheel was bad, there would be no spark or maybe a weak one.

Tim
I'm agreeing with Bob a little on this one along with you stating maybe the air also.. The air in Phoenix for us was the worse I've ran in since I've owned this boat and our 1/8 E.T.s along with everything else was WAY down!!! What we did was once I remembered I had the tester I hooked it up where the pick up usually connects to and ran the tester up to about 3k rpm.. The Tach verified the input RPM along with producing a spark at the coil which we didn't have before.. I put a new pick up on and rolled the motor over, no spark. I removed the pick up from the bracket and ran it back and forth on the new wheel and it would generate a spark.. We were unable to reproduce the spark with the old wheel..

On another note, we spoke with MSD today and they said send it in and we'll check it and repair it as necessary.. Repair cost, 6 to 20 bucks.. Better than 130 wheel!!!
 
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Well...I'm one of those guys Wags refured to that didn't use data. With the way the boat ran before the cam change last year, I could dial it in the 9.0 after the first pass. This new cam throwed it all off by being to quick. I did get a weather station as I know desity alltitude is a good thing to know. I played with it some at the race. Haven't read all the instructions yet. I did see the d/a was 2950. Problem is, I didn't write it down like Wags said to do and I don't remember which run it was. Maybe Wags will look in his secret note book and tell me what the D/A was on the 1st and 3rd qualifying passes and the first round on Sunday as compaired to what I had.


I'm going to check the things BP suggested. If I find nothing wrong, I guess it was just the air. Thinking back, this seems to be the worst air I've run in. Hopefully Wheatland has good air and this thing will run right again.


My main concern is how slow it was out of the hole.


Vince..after reading you had a bad wheel, I thought I may have had a weak spark and that may have cost me power out of the hole. I figured it would work or not, no inbetween. So the magnets loose there power after a while?

Tim
 

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just out of curiousity, have you checked the throttle cable? had somebody stare down the throttle blades while you plant the throttle????
 

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What would be cool is if you had a good mag to drop down in there to test with. That would tell you if its ignition related and all you'd need is a kill relay . Most guys that test this way end up leaving the mag though :D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Tim, who knows.. I sent it in for repair today so I'll let you guys know what they have to say.. I know this, she was a PAIN in the ASS to start and she's never like that.. We ran it after I put the new one on and it fired like she use to.. Still ran like chit but that's due to bad air and a driver that could have done a better job driving..
 

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What would be cool is if you had a good mag to drop down in there to test with. That would tell you if its ignition related and all you'd need is a kill relay . Most guys that test this way end up leaving the mag though :D

Not if your use to dialing in your advance curve and boost retard with lap top. Not if you have learned to dial in your launch controller, or had your engine saved by a rev limiter when the prop shaft sheared or you launched the boat like in my sig line. Not if you learned to love your start retard, and your timing advance or retard at the push of a button.
And most assuredly not if you have learned to love the accuracy of a crank trigger compared to a mag, on the end of a stock diameter core, big azz roller, with big azz valve springs, with the mags addional rotational load, and a set points to boots.
No, I have gad a mag in my engines more than once. Still own one. And I can never seem to get it out of the engine quick enough to suit me. Like running multiple Stromberg 97 carbs compared to a EFI




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Tim, who knows.. I sent it in for repair today so I'll let you guys know what they have to say.. I know this, she was a PAIN in the ASS to start and she's never like that.. We ran it after I put the new one on and it fired like she use to.. Still ran like chit but that's due to bad air and a driver that could have done a better job driving..
It will be interesting to know what happened, if they will tell you. If it was in the pickup, and was the wheel for sure, it makes you wonder if there is some way you could have done something that caused the magnets to demagnitize. Of course, thats something that never ever happens to a mag. ;)



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Discussion Starter #18
It will be interesting to know what happened, if they will tell you. If it was in the pickup, and was the wheel for sure, it makes you wonder if there is some way you could have done something that caused the magnets to demagnitize. Of course, thats something that never ever happens to a mag. ;)
Ha, exactly!!! I'm sure I did something to cause them to fail!!
 

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Not if your use to dialing in your advance curve and boost retard with lap top. Not if you have learned to dial in your launch controller, or had your engine saved by a rev limiter when the prop shaft sheared or you launched the boat like in my sig line. Not if you learned to love your start retard, and your timing advance or retard at the push of a button.
And most assuredly not if you have learned to love the accuracy of a crank trigger compared to a mag, on the end of a stock diameter core, big azz roller, with big azz valve springs, with the mags addional rotational load, and a set points to boots.
No, I have gad a mag in my engines more than once. Still own one. And I can never seem to get it out of the engine quick enough to suit me. Like running multiple Stromberg 97 carbs compared to a EFI
I have a rev limiter and I probably launch my boat harder than what the one in your pic is,Have boost retard as well. And the start retard deal is handle by having a mech advance that is all in as early as possible. I am using a Comp belt drive on my deal and when you check the timing with a light it doesnt waver at all, even when reving it. Very smooth. I dont know why everyone wants to keep reinventing the wheel. Well I do to. To sell all of those fancy gadgets & boxes and crap for the big $$$.
Whats laughable is that the magnets go dead in those crank sensors just like they do in a mag. And I know somebody is going to say "I've ran mine for twenty yrs with the same one" but there are just as many that have done the same thing with thier mag.
Good luck boys!
 

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I am still amazed that with all the high technology tied up in magnetos, that these guys not only are not using them, but actually set them down to pick up a CDI. Certainly couldn't have anything to do with HP. These guys all have mega dollar in house dynos. If there was even 1 certifiable HP in a mag, they would be running them. In fact THE ONLY performance/race vehicles in the world that carries a battery on board that is still using mags, is boats. Go figure the mentality of that.










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