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Discussion Starter #1
that the Army doesn't want. They want to wait for technology to mature before ordering. Congress and Romney/Ryan want to make them eat it now. GOP elites pushing it's defense welfare for votes. Crap pisses me off to no end. I'd rather see something they want get funded. What's another few billion of fake money though, just inflates the currency a little. A hidden tax that ever citizen should be proud of.
 

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Campaigning on them and actually ordering them when the time comes is two different things. One of the uglier sides of politics. Tell them what they want to hear, but not necessarily deliever it. Think there are just a few blacks out there that think Ozero is letting them down from his "campaign promises?? Even Ophra is a little miffed, although she thinks he just needs more time. Like maybe another 2 decades would be perfect.

The military has taken stuff they really didn't want in the past, as well as pushed like hell for stuff that has yet to prove its worth. The Osprey is a perfect example.



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Discussion Starter #3
Campaigning on them and actually ordering them when the time comes is two different things. One of the uglier sides of politics. Tell them what they want to hear, but not necessarily deliever it. Think there are just a few blacks out there that think Ozero is letting them down from his "campaign promises?? Even Ophra is a little miffed, although she thinks he just needs more time. Like maybe another 2 decades would be perfect.

The military has taken stuff they really didn't want in the past, as well as pushed like hell for stuff that has yet to prove its worth. The Osprey is a perfect example.

Osprey has turned out pretty well imo. It's now the safest roto type craft ever built based on casualties to flight hours ratio.
 

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Osprey has turned out pretty well imo. It's now the safest roto type craft ever built based on casualties to flight hours ratio.
Big fucking deal. Propably keeping the numbers down by not having more people in the things than necessary during the STILL on going development. The are FAR more test hours conducted at Edwards and Miramar than "IN COMBAT" time. If you're compairng it to the UH1, the Osprey has 1/10,000 the combat hours of the UH1, and NOWHERE near the IN COMBAT PASSENGER hours!

Like any POLL, you can scew the numbers any way you like.
The thing is a loser.



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Discussion Starter #5
Big fucking deal. Propably keeping the numbers down by not having more people in the things than necessary during the STILL on going development. The are FAR more test hours conducted at Edwards and Miramar than "IN COMBAT" time. If you're compairng it to the UH1, the Osprey has 1/10,000 the combat hours of the UH1, and NOWHERE near the IN COMBAT PASSENGER hours!

Like any POLL, you can scew the numbers any way you like.
The thing is a loser.
I guess, it's used mainly as an assault support and transportation anyways.

Either way we need to cut spending everywhere. No point in support crap they don't want. I for one, would like my dollars to be worth something in the future.

I'm not here to debate the Osprey. I was never impressed by it and I'm not a proponent of ever putting that many men in a roto-type vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If you really really what to make cuts, they need to stop spending money to limit the number of these and dismantling them, and then arguing for decades about where to put the stuff!!!!

I have ALWAYS been very partial to these. Hell, if I had the money, I'd own a couple.

Yeah, I hope we have enough when humanity decides it's a supporter of world peace.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I am beginning to think one of these should be part of the construction of all future embassies, equipped with a spoiled sport button.
Obama would figure out a way to lose them.
 

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Osprey has turned out pretty well imo. It's now the safest roto type craft ever built based on casualties to flight hours ratio.
Think back to the beginning of the Osprey and it's development...

There were MANY MANY MANY in the military (and even more civilians) that said it was a DUD but it needed more time/development... It could very well end up being the same situation with your tank objection... :D

Time will tell and I trust the PENTAGON & Joint Chiefs will do the right thing for our nation/defense/budget, we have to trust someone at some point that they will take the right path...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well "because they did it in the past on this vehicle" shouldn't be an excuse.

We obviously need to change how things are going in Washington.
 

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Well "because they did it in the past on this vehicle" shouldn't be an excuse.

We obviously need to change how things are going in Washington.
True...

WOrking smarter and not necessarily harder... The guys in the pentagon have skin in the game and will have to face the music if they make bad decisions... The politicians not so much...

That is why I trust or defense leaders, they have skin in the game... IF they make bad decisions and bad choices there is hell to pay for them... They have a vested interest, their honor/name/career/lives of their troops/their own families life/our nations security...

You gotsta trust someone... Who is it going to be???
 

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Discussion Starter #13
True...

WOrking smarter and not necessarily harder... The guys in the pentagon have skin in the game and will have to face the music if they make bad decisions... The politicians not so much...

That is why I trust or defense leaders, they have skin in the game... IF they make bad decisions and bad choices there is hell to pay for them... They have a vested interest, their honor/name/career/lives of their troops/their own families life/our nations security...

You gotsta trust someone... Who is it going to be???
Do they, is there? You'll find there is a direct relationship with those who were on panels/boards/in-charge of winner selection for contracts and where they end up working as VPs and Directors with high compensation, bonuses and stock options when they retire.
 

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Do they, is there? You'll find there is a direct relationship with those who were on panels/boards/in-charge of winner selection for contracts and where they end up working as VPs and Directors with high compensation, bonuses and stock options when they retire.
I can only assume that J3 - J8 and the chair/vice chair are in a position to take massive amounts of serioius serious serious "SHISA" and endure massive amounts of pain from and O-10's (four star generals/admirals)... With 30+ years of military service each and no need for "political correctness" or tiptoeing, I'm guessing that the J-3 through J-8 position is a pretty tough and stressful role when you EFFF up...

Does the scenerio you describe above happen??? I'm sure... Is it a perfect situation, noupe'... Do we live in a perfect world, noupe'...

Accountability in the joint chiefs and generals/admirals, I would say so...
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I can only assume that J3 - J8 and the chair/vice chair are in a position to take massive amounts of serioius serious serious "SHISA" and endure massive amounts of pain from and O-10's (four star generals/admirals)... With 30+ years of military service each and no need for "political correctness" or tiptoeing, I'm guessing that the J-3 through J-8 position is a pretty tough and stressful role when you EFFF up...

Does the scenerio you describe above happen??? I'm sure... Is it a perfect situation, noupe'... Do we live in a perfect world, noupe'...

Accountability in the joint chiefs and generals/admirals, I would say so...
In 2008 it was published that Northrop had 22 Retired Generals working for them between NGC and EADS in 2008 to help lobby for a fair competition for the tanker contract. How do you think they obtained high positions at Northrop or EADS?

It happens with O-5 and O-6 all time time.

It happens in all of the companies. It's why moving up as a regular citizen within the company is so difficult.

When you are talking O-9 and O-10, generally those ones don't go into the private sector it seems because they retire old in the Air Force.
 

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I can only assume that J3 - J8 and the chair/vice chair are in a position to take massive amounts of serioius serious serious "SHISA" and endure massive amounts of pain from and O-10's (four star generals/admirals)... With 30+ years of military service each and no need for "political correctness" or tiptoeing, I'm guessing that the J-3 through J-8 position is a pretty tough and stressful role when you EFFF up...

Does the scenerio you describe above happen??? I'm sure... Is it a perfect situation, noupe'... Do we live in a perfect world, noupe'...

Accountability in the joint chiefs and generals/admirals, I would say so...
Sorry Bruce, but I have issues with your reasoning here. There is a thing called lobbying that goes on in the pentegon, and it goes deep, and its old as the country itself.

If the president ordered the leveling of K street tomorrow, he'd be better off having England or France do it. Because the pentegon would see their ASSURED CIVIL POSITION being leveled with it. You're not going to find too many military brass biting the hand that WILL BE FEEDING THEM.



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Discussion Starter #17
At one point I had the following from first level manager to CEO of the company:

Retired AFRL, Retired Air Force Reserves Lt. Col., private Citizen - long term defense employee, Retired Air Force?, Retired United States Marine Core Col., private citizen long term director/vp, private citizen ceo.

There are also another section of management but that one is hard to trace linearly. I'd say about 50% are retired Air Force.
 

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Sorry Bruce, but I have issues with your reasoning here. There is a thing called lobbying that goes on in the pentegon, and it goes deep, and its old as the country itself.

If the president ordered the leveling of K street tomorrow, he'd be better off having England or France do it. Because the pentegon would see their ASSURED CIVIL POSITION being leveled with it. You're not going to find too many military brass biting the hand that WILL BE FEEDING THEM.
Let me repeat myself:

"is the scenerio you describe above happen??? I'm sure... Is it a perfect situation, noupe'... Do we live in a perfect world, noupe'..."

Is there fraud, waste, collusion, price gouging, price fixing??? I think that is a givin... When we are talking about a major weapons system or a new tank or a new navy ship or a new fighter jet and other BIG TICKET items don't you think that there are many four star generals reviewing and looking at the fully loaded costs to help keep things somewhat in check??? Even in those BIG TICKET scenerios there are going to be opportunities for collusion and fraud and prolly even a little nepotism here and there... :happy:

Let me say it again "is the scenerio you describe above happen??? I'm sure... Is it a perfect situation, noupe'... Do we live in a perfect world, noupe'..."

I would trust my $$$ with the accountability and chain of command of our military BRASS (the big guys) as compared to the slime balls in DC that are there for one reason and one reason only (to suck the blood out of the taxpayers)...

I will say it again, you have to trust SOMEONE... I don't trust Hillary, Peeeloozie, Barney Frank, Emmanuel, OlameO, Slick Willy, Harry Reid, Boxer, Biden...
 
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