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Dank MayMay Champion
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Jay Cullen, rip


Berke M.M. Bates, rip


heather heyer, rip

all over a statue... shame for the left and the right.. the statue of RE Lee was being removed.. let them have their tiki torch drum circle.. their was no need for a counter protest.. RE Lee wasnt a slave rapist apologist elitest.. he was a soldier of virginia.. a model officer.. its a shame people put a negative light on him..

and running people over is not cool either.. if only we knew what happened to the chopper.. NTSB is prob guna 911 this and say "swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from venus. which caused the helichopper to fall from the sky.. and jetfuel doesen't melt dank beams.."

we need to all be better to eachother.. atleast try to meet in the middle.. we might disagree but this kind of death over nothing is just unacceptable for all of us.. Trump said we are all americans first and I agree.. we need to be civil to eachother.. the left needs to educate themselves about shit they are counterprotesting for.. if they knew why the right and the south love this man.. none of this would of happened.. let them have their tiki drum circle.. they are morning it.. let them..

its hurts man.. IDK why but it does.. :angry:

and one last thing... we need to put the 4th estate on notice.. I can write an essay on how they cant even do their jobs but it wont matter.. they need to be put on notice
 

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Could not agree more. Wasted lives for nothing.

The cops should have known things where going to go wrong when those guys showed up with helmets, bats and shields.
 

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With some effort I can see two sides to this issue; First up, any of the White supremacists/Neo-Nazi jackwads need to be shipped off to an island to starve to death or become cannibals of themselves. (The Nazis were full-on gangsters who threatened ANYBODY who disagreed with them- a lot of good German citizens were MURDERED by the Nazis when they stood up and said "This is wrong")(As for the white supremacists, so you get rid of anyone who ain't white, then you have to further "Purify" by eliminating the "Dagos" and "Micks" and so on....at some point there is going to be one, totally ruthless, miserable SOB left...and he's gonna be lonely....)

Side one; I have a full understanding of how the Blacks feel about this issue- but I think that sometimes they take it a bit too far...

Side two: I get that the "South" feels a bit put out by the loss in the war.....And they still believe in the (Basic) goodness of their leaders.

So what I had thought of was instead of (Basically) denying that the war happened and treating all of those southerners as evil people, we instead treat it as a war over BOTH slavery AND states rights....We make up a flag that has both the confederate on one half and the US flag on the other half and fly that over all of the battlegrounds of the Civil war. This would have the effect of taking the edge away from those who use this war as a lever to increase racial divides...and comes closer to the truth.

Robert E. Lee was a good man...So was Jefferson Davis......We should be able to respect our enemies- not the bad people, but the good men who fought for their country/states.....They were-and ARE- our brothers.
 

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...Robert E. Lee was a good man...So was Jefferson Davis......We should be able to respect our enemies- not the bad people, but the good men who fought for their country/states.....They were-and ARE- our brothers.
:))THumbsUp:))THumbsUp

If "they" demand we erase all evidence of the "civil war", then all evidence and emotions regarding Slavery must be diminished as well....
 

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We should teach our children history, the bad along with the good. Some people think that ignoring, changing history, the civil war, secession, slavery, by taking down memorials, statues, Ten Commandments, is going to solve bigotry and racism. It is always better to learn from the true facts.
 

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We should teach our children history, the bad along with the good. Some people think that ignoring, changing history, the civil war, secession, slavery, by taking down memorials, statues, Ten Commandments, is going to solve bigotry and racism. It is always better to learn from the true facts.
Facts don't lie! Liberals, democrats and the mainstream media does - to promote their agenda.

Honest question, why were confederate monuments not a problem under obama's administration? Anyone???
 

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You NEVER learn from your mistakes if you deny them or cover them up....Good people never deny what they have done- they admit what they have done that is wrong and then they have the ability to move forward. It is not easy...I have made some stupid mistakes..and have sat down and accepted them and then moved forward, vowing not to make that mistake again.

Mistakes were made on both sides of the Civil war....We should have done more to help the south rebuild>>>I have said this before, but still; Look at how we treated Germany after WW1- stood on their neck and forced them to pay restitution while their country was absolutely DEVASTATED from the war...This led directly to Nazism.....After WW2, we helped both Germany and Japan rebuild....We fight, we forgive...and we move on.

I will also say this as an example of how our country did not pick the best path away from slavery; England was able to slowly but surely eliminate slavery without a war....It is not wrong to admit when we have done something wrong- doing it was wrong...and covering it up or pretending it had some other cause is wrong.....just as morally wrong-if not more so- as the original wrong. Admitting it and then moving on while learning from it takes courage....That is what I find admirable....

Slavery needed to be stopped- it was a moral stain on our constitution.....But both sides could have done more to avert the Civil war...and I still see the basic OTHER question that was a principle cause of that war- States Rights- as a legitimate subject of discussion...I think it is a very difficult question to answer...maybe the MOST difficult question for a COUNTRY of FREE individuals; When is freedom the right of the individual, and when is it necessary to curtail the freedom of the individual for the well-fare of the country?
 

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Dank MayMay Champion
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Facts don't lie! Liberals, democrats and the mainstream media does - to promote their agenda.

Honest question, why were confederate monuments not a problem under obama's administration? Anyone???

It was..


literal cheering.. its like they have built up all this hate for white males into that flag.. idk.. Ive seen some shady individuals flying those colors.. but that doesn't take away from the history of it.. x years from now when we finally wrestle our government back into the hands of the people, should be ban the red white and blue? because of all the horrible shit the government did on our behalf?

if you answered yes :)violent

I wish people put this much god damn effort into anti corruption and anti trust
 

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Robert E. Lee was a West Point graduate who took an oath to uphold the United States Constitution and defend the United States.

He then freely chose to undertake an unconstitutional betrayal of the work of our founding fathers as well as to not only personally take up arms, but help organize others to include whole groups of people into an army to take up arms against that Country and Constitution he swore to defend. That is the factual history and by any reasonable definition he was the most deadliest traitor against the Republic in American history resulting in more deaths of Americas as a percentage of population than any other war in our history. Robert E. Lee's actions against his own country resulted in more US deaths than in both World Wars, Korea and Vietnam combined, about 2% of the US population at the time. To put it in perspective, his sedition led to the equivalent today of the deaths of approximately 6.6 million Americans.

We do not have hundreds of statues and memorials to Benedict Arnold in 31 states across America. We do not, nor should we, have hundreds of statues and memorials to our Republic's enemies throughout our history nor should we celebrate the lives of those who took up arms against our Republic and our fellow citizens.

We do not need such statues and monuments to understand and learn from history as we all know very well about America's history without statues and monuments to other enemies from foreign adversaries, let alone monuments and statues to traitors of our own country.

People can rationalize all they want about the South and the Civil War, but the bottom line was that it was an unconstitutional attack on the Republic, and those that undertook it, and those that led it, were nothing but traitors to the work of the founding fathers and to their own Country.

There was no Constitutional right of secession. Robert E. Lee was not a good American, he was a traitor who took up arms against the United States of America and was responsible for the deaths of the greatest number of Americans in our history.
 

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So on one hand we have ole Doc....He is sure that ONLY white christian conservatives are good people- and everyone else is pure evil bad. On the other hand we have people who see the south and all of it's people as evil...bad....slavers.


So, my first question is for Doc....I want to hear what YOU have to say about >>>DENNIS HASTERT<<<...would you trust him with your children or grandchildren? Is HE a "Good white christian conservative"....? Or are you now forced to disqualify him and point at him while denouncing him as a liberal....What is your answer to this?


On the other hand, how would you- Black Dynamite- treat the German populace after WW2? Are they all criminals who deserve nothing but death because they were associated with the Nazis?


The thing is, we all are raised with certain information and knowledge....after we gain some experience, we should be able to....Grow a bit; Realize that everything we grew up around, and everything we heard, is not absolutely perfect.....We should be able to develop an open mind- no, not so open that our brains fall out.....To properly discuss an issue- especially if you want to win the argument- you need to be able to understand the other persons point of view.....Try to see the situation the way "HE" sees it.


Sadly, a lot of people- especially Americans- believe that their point of view is handed down from on high...all cultures suffer from this...But for some reason, the US population is especially susceptible to this...provincial attitude....We seem to think that "THIS is the ONLY way and EVERYONE else is wrong and/or EVIL!"


You say that Lee took an oath- yes, he did, to uphold the Constitution.....He felt that the constitution was being subverted by the strong-arm tactics of the federal government...And there are still questions about how that issue was finally "solved"....But Lee was an honorable man, and did what he thought was right...This is not as cut and dried as night and day....but as we reach adulthood, we should be able to start to understand that the world is actually all different shades of gray...very rarely is the answer black or white.


What do you think we should do......Every year have all of the South line up so the rest of us can spit on them?
 

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a.k.a. "Mean Pair"
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It was..


literal cheering.. its like they have built up all this hate for white males into that flag.. idk.. Ive seen some shady individuals flying those colors.. but that doesn't take away from the history of it.. x years from now when we finally wrestle our government back into the hands of the people, should be ban the red white and blue? because of all the horrible shit the government did on our behalf?

if you answered yes :)violent

I wish people put this much god damn effort into anti corruption and anti trust
60499_601727546504359_1216075649_n.jpg
 

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So on one hand we have ole Doc....He is sure that ONLY white christian conservatives are good people- and everyone else is pure evil bad. On the other hand we have people who see the south and all of it's people as evil...bad....slavers.


So, my first question is for Doc....I want to hear what YOU have to say about >>>DENNIS HASTERT<<<...would you trust him with your children or grandchildren? Is HE a "Good white christian conservative"....? Or are you now forced to disqualify him and point at him while denouncing him as a liberal....What is your answer to this?


On the other hand, how would you- Black Dynamite- treat the German populace after WW2? Are they all criminals who deserve nothing but death because they were associated with the Nazis?


The thing is, we all are raised with certain information and knowledge....after we gain some experience, we should be able to....Grow a bit; Realize that everything we grew up around, and everything we heard, is not absolutely perfect.....We should be able to develop an open mind- no, not so open that our brains fall out.....To properly discuss an issue- especially if you want to win the argument- you need to be able to understand the other persons point of view.....Try to see the situation the way "HE" sees it.


Sadly, a lot of people- especially Americans- believe that their point of view is handed down from on high...all cultures suffer from this...But for some reason, the US population is especially susceptible to this...provincial attitude....We seem to think that "THIS is the ONLY way and EVERYONE else is wrong and/or EVIL!"


You say that Lee took an oath- yes, he did, to uphold the Constitution.....He felt that the constitution was being subverted by the strong-arm tactics of the federal government...And there are still questions about how that issue was finally "solved"....But Lee was an honorable man, and did what he thought was right...This is not as cut and dried as night and day....but as we reach adulthood, we should be able to start to understand that the world is actually all different shades of gray...very rarely is the answer black or white.


What do you think we should do......Every year have all of the South line up so the rest of us can spit on them?


Naturally the war is over and life goes on, and although as long as humans exist there will always be war, we should all get along as best as possible and it is in the interest of the victors to help the defeated reasonably re-stablish civil order. Something America has attempted to do in most cases after conflicts and did so during Reconstruction.

But I thought the topic was about the statues and their significance/importance?

There are not dozens of statues in the United States embellishing or idolizing Cornwallis from the Revolutionary War, Cardona from WWI, Hitler or Hirohito from WWII or leaders of America's enemies from all of our wars, yet we can and do now get along with them in varied forms quite well.

And I am quite confident that if the Confederacy would have been successful in splittling America into two countries today, that there would not be a lot of statues in the "Confederate America" embellishing or idolizing Lincoln, Grant, Sherman or for that matter the original founding fathers of the original American Union as the South would today be a separate Country with a separate Constitution, a rich history of how they won their independence and would also have been the largest nation of institutionalized slavery which was the predominant "states right" which Lee and the South was fighting for.

Had the Confederacy been successful and someone was then later born in that Country, I could understand how they would be a proud patriot of that Country, want their monuments of Lee and others, and their history of how their nation was founded.

But todays supporters of Lee and the treasonous acts of the Confederacy were not alive back then and they were born in the United States of America. And as such, I would hope that they would be proud patriots of the United States of America and support those that defended it in the past and wish to defend it in the future. Not those who picked up arms against it in the past or would pick up arms against it now or in the future?

Which is why I just don't get how the Alt-Right can wrap themselves in the flag of American Patriotism if they are willing to fight and die in the streets to support the retention of a statues and monuments to individuals who engaged in treasonous acts against the Untied States which directly caused the deaths of the most Americans of all major wars combined? You would think by now, a real patriot's loyalties would lie with America, not a long dead, failed and treasonous Confederacy?
 

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Dank MayMay Champion
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
You would think by now, a real patriot's loyalties would lie with America, not a long dead, failed and treasonous Confederacy?
If you know a marine ask him about RE lee.. you will prob be surprised... leathernecks know

what about John Brown? is he a traitor? kinda instigated the war imo.. but because he was against the south we give him a free pass right? or has harpers ferry already been wiped from history?


thats a whole lot of gray if u ask me.. hes just prob a lone wolf right?

yea

we are there.. right now.. just a readhead's hair away from another american intra-conflict
 

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If you know a marine ask him about RE lee.. leathernecks know

what about John Brown? is he a traitor? kinda instigated the war imo.. but because he was against the south we give him a free pass right? or has harpers ferry already been wiped from history?


thats a whole lot of gray if u ask me..
I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that John Brown got a free pass?

John Brown was found guilty of Treason and hung in December of 1859.

Robert E. Lee supported and agreed to the charges of Treason. 6 others in John Brown's group were hung later for treason also.

Robert E. Lee did not resign his commission until April 1861. He did not take up arms against his country until June 1862. Lee's ferry was in 59 prior to Lee turning against his country.

The treatment and view of John Brown by Lee is consistent with a view that Lee too committed Treason post 1861.
 

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BD, the difference is Cornwallis, Hirohito, etc were NOT from this country, whereas Lee and all of the Confederates are our BROTHERS, one way or another....Were they wrong? Yes, basically...The slavery question was absolute, while the separation between Federal and state rights was very much a shade of gray.

The war IS over, and no-one should continue to hate another in this country over that war....Are there still racists? YES! Are there still fools who somehow believe that the Confederates were fully right? Yes again! But if they hate, we know it's simply because of stupidity, while if YOU hate Lee and the rest of the South....well, where does that lead to, answer-wise?

Like I said before, we should create a flag that is half US and half Confederate and fly it over all of the Civil war battlefields...It is not really >They died< or the UNION troops died......we ALL died during that war...we should have done better, and we should morn the loss of all the dead.....This flag would help to take the TEETH out of the white supremacist and Neo-nazi movements.....They thrive on pointing out that whites are being stepped on and put down....don't let them use this, our history, as a recruiting tool!

Think of it another way; Have you ever gotten into a big argument with your GF/wife? And, after winning, did you constantly bring up that YOU were RIGHT? And then.....well, did your relationship end? Solve the problem, and then move on...be gracious in defeat- or in winning....
 

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BD, the difference is Cornwallis, Hirohito, etc were NOT from this country, whereas Lee and all of the Confederates are our BROTHERS, one way or another....Were they wrong? Yes, basically...The slavery question was absolute, while the separation between Federal and state rights was very much a shade of gray.

The war IS over, and no-one should continue to hate another in this country over that war....Are there still racists? YES! Are there still fools who somehow believe that the Confederates were fully right? Yes again! But if they hate, we know it's simply because of stupidity, while if YOU hate Lee and the rest of the South....well, where does that lead to, answer-wise?

Like I said before, we should create a flag that is half US and half Confederate and fly it over all of the Civil war battlefields...It is not really >They died< or the UNION troops died......we ALL died during that war...we should have done better, and we should morn the loss of all the dead.....This flag would help to take the TEETH out of the white supremacist and Neo-nazi movements.....They thrive on pointing out that whites are being stepped on and put down....don't let them use this, our history, as a recruiting tool!

Think of it another way; Have you ever gotten into a big argument with your GF/wife? And, after winning, did you constantly bring up that YOU were RIGHT? And then.....well, did your relationship end? Solve the problem, and then move on...be gracious in defeat- or in winning....
Fair points, but here is how I sort of see it.

Let me ask you if you would support the following equally.

In the Revolutionary War, approximately 20% of the population were loyalist and supported Britain who were the BROTHERS of colonists and some died supporting the British side.

In the Civil war, approximately 30% of the population belonged in states in the confederacy although all did not support secession.

In either event, to the extent that one could support monuments to those who fought for the confederacy to divide our Country, would it not be logical to support monuments for loyalists who fought for the British against the formation of our Country? Should we create a flag of half British half US over revolutionary war battlefields?

Personally, I would think not as I am not aware of any monuments to Benedict Arnold with his name on it, or other monuments to loyalists in the center of town squares in the states that were the original colonies, or any other monuments to other loyalists?

With respect to the argument that the civil war was about states rights, that is true, but to state that the states right in dispute was in any meaningful way other than slavery, is somewhat revisionist.
 

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BD, the difference is Cornwallis, Hirohito, etc were NOT from this country, whereas Lee and all of the Confederates are our BROTHERS, one way or another....Were they wrong? Yes, basically...The slavery question was absolute, while the separation between Federal and state rights was very much a shade of gray.

The war IS over, and no-one should continue to hate another in this country over that war....Are there still racists? YES! Are there still fools who somehow believe that the Confederates were fully right? Yes again! But if they hate, we know it's simply because of stupidity, while if YOU hate Lee and the rest of the South....well, where does that lead to, answer-wise?

Like I said before, we should create a flag that is half US and half Confederate and fly it over all of the Civil war battlefields...It is not really >They died< or the UNION troops died......we ALL died during that war...we should have done better, and we should morn the loss of all the dead.....This flag would help to take the TEETH out of the white supremacist and Neo-nazi movements.....They thrive on pointing out that whites are being stepped on and put down....don't let them use this, our history, as a recruiting tool!

Think of it another way; Have you ever gotten into a big argument with your GF/wife? And, after winning, did you constantly bring up that YOU were RIGHT? And then.....well, did your relationship end? Solve the problem, and then move on...be gracious in defeat- or in winning....

Your last paragraph has an interesting thought that "OUR" President could learn, "move on...be gracious in defeat- or in winning." Is it any wonder why the hate in this country has been showing up like it has.

As a side note, has anyone even thought about ISIS recently. Or, how about Putin? We don't seem to be hearing very much about the Russian investigation either. My, isn't that convenient for Trump?
 

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BD, the difference is Cornwallis, Hirohito, etc were NOT from this country, whereas Lee and all of the Confederates are our BROTHERS, one way or another....Were they wrong? Yes, basically...The slavery question was absolute, while the separation between Federal and state rights was very much a shade of gray.

The war IS over, and no-one should continue to hate another in this country over that war....Are there still racists? YES! Are there still fools who somehow believe that the Confederates were fully right? Yes again! But if they hate, we know it's simply because of stupidity, while if YOU hate Lee and the rest of the South....well, where does that lead to, answer-wise?

Like I said before, we should create a flag that is half US and half Confederate and fly it over all of the Civil war battlefields...It is not really >They died< or the UNION troops died......we ALL died during that war...we should have done better, and we should morn the loss of all the dead.....This flag would help to take the TEETH out of the white supremacist and Neo-nazi movements.....They thrive on pointing out that whites are being stepped on and put down....don't let them use this, our history, as a recruiting tool!

Think of it another way; Have you ever gotten into a big argument with your GF/wife? And, after winning, did you constantly bring up that YOU were RIGHT? And then.....well, did your relationship end? Solve the problem, and then move on...be gracious in defeat- or in winning....
I like your post :thumb:.... but IMO a 2 sided flag is not the answer.....the south lost the war and the Confederate flag should ONLY fly out of respect for those who sacrificed their lives....and the Union (US) flag should ALWAYS fly besides it to keep things in perspective and to honor those Union soldiers who sacrificed and gave their lives as well.

The problem is with "We the People" as we allow ourselves to fall victim and elect POS politicians who promise us "everything" only to be elected and advance their objectives of fleecing the flock and plotting us against one another for purposes of advancing their personal agendas...

We should stop pointing our fingers at one another and address the REAL problem......and IMO, electing Trump was a GIANT step in the right direction....not due to his profound leadership skills, that's a joke....... but by simply throwing a "monkey wrench" into the entire DC equation...and We the People telling the Clintons.....FUCK YOU!
Hell, Trump has the GOP so F'D up they don't know whether to shit or go blind....AND the DNC base is melting away faster than a wicked witch dowsed with water......and I am loving every minute of it :partyguy:

EVERYONE IN DC SHOULD BE FIRED! And "We" started with Hillary
 

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Snic...I have always believed that DC was built with one key device missing.....A giant FLUSH handle!

I dislike all parties....They tend to degenerate into taking care of themselves before the welfare of the country.

And BD, I understand that this is a very difficult situation....What I am trying to get across is that we should have respect for our fallen- both those who were "Right" and those who were "Wrong".....The way the allies treated Germany after WW1 basically GAVE Hitler power, while the way we treated Germany and Japan after WW2 proved to both of these countries that we were the right ones..and would treat people well.

By not allowing respect for the southern dead, we are not "Creating more freedom for blacks" or other minorities, we are giving the people of the south a reason to resent the North and the minorities, and so creating a tool for the white supremacists and nazi-idiots to use for recruitment.

The split flag would be a way of saying, "We have fought, we have died, and we have finished this war...let us move on together"....I don't know if this is the right way, but it could help....

What do you think a man of mixed race should do if he were to see his great grandfather's grave...who had fought on the confederate side? Should he spit on that grave? Or should he be able to lay flowers and move on? I don't think this is an easy question to answer. But 90% of the south is not an enemy anymore, and we should help rather than push them away....
 
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