riddle me this

terrible_buddhist · 2009-07-08

the point of fuel injection is to get the fuel as close to the combustion chamber as possible...right? I mean, I know there are other reasons...but that is one of the main ones. right? So in blown set up, why bother running EFI above the blower? my follow up question is...in a draw thru Turbo set up, can you run a wet nitrous system into the manifold, or will it not be able to inject say 7 pounds pressure of fuel into a 10 pound pressure of boost and cause a lean out?

Unchained

· #21 · Jul 9, 2009

At WOT all that matters is A/F ratio. It's either right or its not whether your putting it in with EFI, a carb, or a mfi pressure washer.

That being said WOT is also the easiest to tune for, all the other rpm and load ranges are where the challenge is, and EFI is the ONLY thing that is capable of accurately tuning all those parameters as well as cold start, accel enrichment, ignition, etc.

Everyone will be using EFI eventually, they just don't know it yet.

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Hass828

· #22 · Jul 9, 2009

Unchained said:
At WOT all that matters is A/F ratio. It's either right or its not whether your putting it in with EFI, a carb, or a mfi pressure washer.

That being said WOT is also the easiest to tune for, all the other rpm and load ranges are where the challenge is, and EFI is the ONLY thing that is capable of accurately tuning all those parameters as well as cold start, accel enrichment, ignition, etc.

Everyone will be using EFI eventually, they just dont know it yet.

Ya want to bet ?

You guys check out this link from a well respected carb builder
http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

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IMPATIENT 1

· #23 · Jul 9, 2009

after see'n billy's deal run, i'll stick the the carb as well

devil

grn

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s2k1

· #24 · Jul 9, 2009

Hass828 said:
Ya want to bet ?

You guys check out this link from a well respected carb builder
http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

I read the link. Some info makes sense. For instance, intake air temp and emulsion of the fuel.
However, many are focused on A/F when talking about power. A/F doesn't make power, ignition timing does. A little rich or a little lean from your target A/F will not effect power too much. However, a few degrees of ignition timing will have huge effects! With an EMS, that is where one of the advantages is. The ability to control the ignition with much more detail.
For any of you that are afraid of EFI, or don't understand how it works, check this place out......
www.efi101.com

The people at Sterling Engines answered the very same question when I asked it. It's because with out running the blower wet, they ran into problems with the seals frying almost instantly.

I don't have much blower experience, but this is what i've always been taught is the issue. Not sure if that is the same case for the screw blowers or just the roots style huffers.

Oh yea, and an MSD 7AL3 wont light it off on the nos, needs to be a mag, good luck, Hass

It is pretty common for an MSD to be unable to light of the chamber in an engine running a fair amount of boost. The mag is not the only way either. A good CDI from a company like www.autronic.com.au or from www.mwignitions.com would be an excellent option for an engine using an EMS.

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Hass828

· #25 · Jul 9, 2009

s2k1 said:
I read the link. Some info makes sense. For instance, intake air temp and emulsion of the fuel.
However, many are focused on A/F when talking about power.A/F doesn't make power, ignition timing does. Alittle rich or a little lean from your target A/F will not effect power to much. However, a few degrees of ignition timing will have huge effects! With an EMS, that is where one of the advantages is. The ability to control the ignition with much more detail.
For any of you that are afraid of EFI, or don't understand how it works, check this place out......
www.efi101.com

I respectfully disagree

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Unchained

· #26 · Jul 10, 2009

Hass828 said:
Ya want to bet ?
You guys check out this link from a well respected carb builder
http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html

Thanks for the link Hass but that is from someone who wants to sell carbs too. Those guys are only about 30 miles from me here in Mi.

I'm anxious to see how these blow through systems work but just the WOT HP is not enough to prove the OVERALL package to me.

There seems to be some misconceptions about the spray pattern and atomization with injectors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D-RJ0ivv4k
Looks pretty atomized to me and it's spraying in about 6" from the valve.

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ap67et10

· #27 · Jul 10, 2009 (Edited)

I also read the article about efi vs carb. clearly there is some very good info in there. however one thing that stuck out throughout the entire article was that they are advocates for carbs...and sell and make money on carbs. I thought it was somewhat interesting though, how the mentality is that a human tunes a carb and controls the carb settings to make it run prestine. And on the contrary efi is a complex computer that you have no contol over, and you never know what its going to do. so if you want it to be right, tune it yourself with the carb. i honestly felt as if he was about to say "be careful i have even seen efi computers turn on there owners and blow up their engine!"

The primary thing here with ems is that there are so many inputs that are required and so much understanding of parameters and the actual functions taking place, that most people would rather go carb because its not worth it. Carbs are much simpler, and in most cases much cheaper, and can make similar power. All which are perfectly legitimate reasons to go carb, but to give the impression that efi is inferior to a carb or less efficient and less effective is just ignorant.

AP

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Hass828

· #28 · Jul 10, 2009 (Edited)

Unchained said:
Thanks for the link Hass but that is from someone who wants to sell carbs too. Those guys are only about 30 miles from me here in Mi.

I'm anxious to see how these blow through systems work but just the WOT HP is not enough to prove the OVERALL package to me.

There seems to be some misconceptions about the spray pattern and atomization with injectors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D-RJ0ivv4k
Looks pretty atomized to me and it's spraying in about 6" from the valve.

ap67et10 said:
I also read the article about efi vs carb. clearly there is some very good info in there. however one thing that stuck out throughout the entire article was that they are advocates for carbs...and sell and make money on carbs. I thought it was somewhat interesting though, how the mentality is that a human tunes a carb and controls the carb settings to make it run prestine. And on the contrary efi is a complex computer that you have no contol over, and you never know what its going to do. so if you want it to be right, tune it yourself with the carb. i honestly felt as if he was about to say "be careful i have even seen efi computers turn on there owners and blow up their engine!"

The primary thing here with ems is that there are so many inputs that are required and so much understanding of parameters and the actual functions taking place, that most people would rather go carb because its not worth it. Carbs are much simpler, and in most cases much cheaper, and can make similar power. All which are perfectly legitimate reasons to go carb, but to give the impression that efi is inferior to a carb or less efficient and less effective is just ignorant.

AP

Hey guys, no one here trying to deny the fact that efi runs well all through the rpm range and that it also makes wonderful power once tuned. With that being said, I have to ask though, why would you want to have to deal with tps sensors, iac's , injectors, computers, wiring harnesses for all of this, open loop, closed loop, sequential, batch fire , bunch of blah, blah, blah(gives me a head ache just to think about it) when a simple carb hooked up to a couple fuel lines and a throttle cable is perfectly capable of the same results ?
The carb stuff has come a long way in the last 5 or so years, and if you think that one cant be built that will cruise around nice and lean, start easy , and also be able to provide enough fuel to make tremendous hp, well then you not up to date on the current stuff available.

edit: as far as the ignition goes you can have the same digital setup to adjust the timing on individual cylinders with carbs also, so no advantage with the efi there.

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T

twntrbo

· #29 · Jul 11, 2009

Hass828 said:
Hey guys, no one here trying to deny the fact that efi runs well all through the rpm range and that it also makes wonderful power once tuned. With that being said, I have to ask though, why would you want to have to deal with tps sensors, iac's , injectors, computers, wiring harnesses for all of this, open loop, closed loop, sequential, batch fire , bunch of blah, blah, blah(gives me a head ache just to think about it) when a simple carb hooked up to a couple fuel lines and a throttle cable is perfectly capable of the same results ?
The carb stuff has come a long way in the last 5 or so years, and if you think that one cant be built that will cruise around nice and lean, start easy , and also be able to provide enough fuel to make tremendous hp, well then you not up to date on the current stuff available.

edit: as far as the ignition goes you can have the same digital setup to adjust the timing on individual cylinders with carbs also, so no advantage with the efi there.

Gotta agree on the complicated part.I am by no means some computer wiz but i was lucky to have one of the top tuners help me with mine or i would not of figured it out on my own.
But he helped me get it lined out and i learned on the way.Now i would not go back as long as it's turbocharged.

For me a couple things stand out.The tunability,that datalogger is the shiets,can adjust timing with a few clicks,adjust a/r same way and many others and feel confident that it will repeat itself in most all conditions,the fine tuning is awesume.Do i need all that to make big power,nope,but it is fun.
.
fuel disitribution,this motor has such good fuel distribution that i can pull all the plugs out and they will all look the same,always had a lean one or 2 with a carb,that right their is worth some hp.
This is just MY experiences,if i wouldn't of had good help i would of went carb.
For me,if it's got turbos on it i'm all over it,their just bad ass,plain and simple.

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ap67et10

· #30 · Jul 11, 2009

twntrbo said:
Gotta agree on the complicated part.I am by no means some computer wiz but i was lucky to have one of the top tuners help me with mine or i would not of figured it out on my own.
But he helped me get it lined out and i learned on the way.Now i would not go back as long as it's turbocharged.

For me a couple things stand out.The tunability,that datalogger is the shiets,can adjust timing with a few clicks,adjust a/r same way and many others and feel confident that it will repeat itself in most all conditions,the fine tuning is awesume.Do i need all that to make big power,nope,but it is fun.
.
fuel disitribution,this motor has such good fuel distribution that i can pull all the plugs out and they will all look the same,always had a lean one or 2 with a carb,that right their is worth some hp.
This is just MY experiences,if i wouldn't of had good help i would of went carb.
For me,if it's got turbos on it i'm all over it,their just bad ass,plain and simple.

that is one thing i was going to say too. that efi vs carb article mentioned the cooler air temp because of a wet manifold, but failed to mention that the wet manifold is one of the biggest downfalls of the carb also, because of natually lean cylinders...which causes inconsistancy, but more than anything it causes the potential for major damage.

i have no problem with carbs, i like carbs. i just like efi more!!!

AP

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ap67et10

· #31 · Jul 11, 2009 (Edited)

Hass828 said:
Hey guys, no one here trying to deny the fact that efi runs well all through the rpm range and that it also makes wonderful power once tuned. With that being said, I have to ask though, why would you want to have to deal with tps sensors, iac's , injectors, computers, wiring harnesses for all of this, open loop, closed loop, sequential, batch fire , bunch of blah, blah, blah(gives me a head ache just to think about it) when a simple carb hooked up to a couple fuel lines and a throttle cable is perfectly capable of the same results ?
The carb stuff has come a long way in the last 5 or so years, and if you think that one cant be built that will cruise around nice and lean, start easy , and also be able to provide enough fuel to make tremendous hp, well then you not up to date on the current stuff available.

edit: as far as the ignition goes you can have the same digital setup to adjust the timing on individual cylinders with carbs also, so no advantage with the efi there.

I would ask the same question to you except slightly different (obviously)

why wouldn't you want to deal with tps sensors, iac's , injectors, computers, wiring harnesses for all of this, open loop, closed loop, sequential, batch fire...I mean really, look at all fun new things to play with!! you get to control EVERYTHING!

maybe that's my problem though. I want to be in control of everything, and know everything that is going on. you can ask anyone that knows me...i ask way too many questions and want to know way too many details. I just don't know how anyone would be ok with not knowing.

AP

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Hass828

· #32 · Jul 11, 2009

ap67et10 said:
I would as the same question to you except slightly different (obviously)

why wouldn't you want to deal with tps sensors, iac's , injectors, computers, wiring harnesses for all of this, open loop, closed loop, sequential, batch fire...I mean really, look at all fun new things to play with!! you get to control EVERYTHING!

maybe that's my problem though. I want to be in control of everything, and know everything that is going on. you can ask anyone that knows me...i ask way too many questions and want to know way too many details. I just don't know how anyone would be ok with not knowing.

AP

control freak !!

j/k

All of the same data can be collected on a carbed deal, just as it can with a efi, IF you want to spent the loot to do it. But for my coin, as long as I know what the ignition timing , A/F ratio, boost , oil press., and rpms are doing , I'm satisfied with being able to control that.

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Hass828

· #33 · Jul 11, 2009 (Edited)

ap67et10 said:
that is one thing i was going to say too. that efi vs carb article mentioned the cooler air temp because of a wet manifold, but failed to mention that the wet manifold is one of the biggest downfalls of the carb also, because of natually lean cylinders...which causes inconsistancy, but more than anything it causes the potential for major damage.

i have no problem with carbs, i like carbs. i just like efi more!!!

AP

I will agree about the lean holes but once again you guys arent up to date on the carb stuff. the lean holes are caused mainly from the boosters being to close to the throttle blades and having a dead air space on one side of the blades, C&S has overcome this by raising the fuel delivery nozzles and redesigning them , no more lean holes.
http://www.candsspecialties.com/abcmods.html
I'm no salesperson for C&S, but I have studied their carb and from what I have seen they have it down to an art.
I dont know anything about CSU but reliable sources say that they are just as good at this blow through stuff.

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