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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #1
Hi , i was wondering what a good, not to expensive roller cam would be for a 454, nothing special has 781 heads, airgap intake, 750 double pumper carb. I was looking at either lunati or comp cams marine roller camshaft, has anybody used these? or does anybody have any recommendations? dont want to break the bank, thought i would put a roller because i dont want to mess around with possibly flatt cam lobes due to the no zinc thing in the oil. This is not a race boat, just ski, but maybe someday who knows. I need the springs, lifters etc... any thoughts thanks... ohh also it is a 12 degree casale, with 18 gears i believe... :)eh:)
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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What do you want it to rev? and are you thinking hydraulic or solid ?


S CP :)
 

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Hi , i was wondering what a good, not to expensive roller cam would be for a 454, nothing special has 781 heads, airgap intake, 750 double pumper carb. I was looking at either lunati or comp cams marine roller camshaft, has anybody used these? or does anybody have any recommendations? dont want to break the bank, thought i would put a roller because i dont want to mess around with possibly flatt cam lobes due to the no zinc thing in the oil. This is not a race boat, just ski, but maybe someday who knows. I need the springs, lifters etc... any thoughts thanks... ohh also it is a 12 degree casale, with 18 gears i believe... :)eh:)
First, there is no such thing as a inexpensive roller. The cams are pretty much the same cost regardless of the grind, regardless of the grinder. Springs are little less for smaller rollers, but still not cheap. Lifters run the price scale, and you get what you pay for.

If your going with a roller strictly because you THINK there is a lack of ZDDP in the oil, thats a bad reason. First, there are plenty of oils that have more than enough ZDDP in them for a flat tappet, and you should be using those oils regardless of the cam type. The cam is not the only part in the engine that benefits from the ZDDP, just the most obvious.



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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #4
Im just using it as a ski boat, i would like to be able to beat a jet boat once in a while though, as far as rpms, nothing crazy , this is not going to be a high rev motor, maybe 4 grand, i think thats about where it used to top out, or maybe a little less, i cant remember, anyways nothing really high. I know that all the cams are about the same price, but the cam kits are priced different, like gn7 said, depends on lifters etc... I was going to go with a roller because i thought it might last longer than a flat tappet, and yes mostly because of the zddp or lack of in the oil, i thought the roller might be good insurance, also i wouldnt have to be adding additives to the oil at every oil change, that sucks, and im not sure what oil you are talking about, that has enough zinc, because i read that all oils still have some zddp in them but not enough for flat tappet cams, i could be wrong but most of the research iv done pretty much all said the same thing, not enough to protect flat tappet cams, i would appreciate whatever help you guys can give me, hope this helps, i thought for a ski boat you want something like an rv cam? But i would like to have some top end also but you cant have your cake and eat it too i guess???
 

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Aquacraft
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719 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Also i was thinking of a hydraulic roller, forgot to mention that , sorry for the long post...... I have seen alot of people around here that have rounded their cam lobes on flat tappet, but then again not sure if they had the valves adjusted right either? I know that there is alot of other reasons for rounding cam lobes not just the oil, usually valves arent adjusted right....
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #6
I rebuilt a 351 cleveland a few years ago, like 12, and now i wished i would have used a roller, mainly because of the canted valve design, ohh welllll live and learn, the cleveland is notorious for rounding the cam lobes, i just didnt have the money for the roller back then and i didnt think it was that big of a deal...
 

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Im just using it as a ski boat, i would like to be able to beat a jet boat once in a while though, as far as rpms, nothing crazy , this is not going to be a high rev motor, maybe 4 grand, i think thats about where it used to top out, or maybe a little less, i cant remember, anyways nothing really high. I know that all the cams are about the same price, but the cam kits are priced different, like gn7 said, depends on lifters etc... I was going to go with a roller because i thought it might last longer than a flat tappet, and yes mostly because of the zddp or lack of in the oil, i thought the roller might be good insurance, also i wouldnt have to be adding additives to the oil at every oil change, that sucks, and im not sure what oil you are talking about, that has enough zinc, because i read that all oils still have some zddp in them but not enough for flat tappet cams, i could be wrong but most of the research iv done pretty much all said the same thing, not enough to protect flat tappet cams, i would appreciate whatever help you guys can give me, hope this helps, i thought for a ski boat you want something like an rv cam? But i would like to have some top end also but you cant have your cake and eat it too i guess???
Only spinning 4K rpm?....Doubtful you will be smoking many jetboats. 18 gears @ 4000 rpm is only 4720 prop shaft rpm. Once a flat tappt cam gets past a successful break-in it will last as long as any other cam.
 

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I rebuilt a 351 cleveland a few years ago, like 12, and now i wished i would have used a roller, mainly because of the canted valve design, ohh welllll live and learn, the cleveland is notorious for rounding the cam lobes, i just didnt have the money for the roller back then and i didnt think it was that big of a deal...
Canted valves have nothing to do with the need for a roller and Clevelands are no more prone to flatten cams than any other engine.
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #9
Well i dont remember what the rpm was when the boat was running, that does sound low, last time it was running was in 1986, dont remember exactly, maybe 5 grand or so,what is the normal rpm for a stock big block in a v-drive? Im not sure what it was, sorry. The cleveland had such an extreme canted valve design they would wear the cam lobes down, this was one of the flaws with the motor, they recommed putting a roller in to solve this problem, it can handle the crazy angle, there is alot of articles on this , i will try to post one,
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
heres an article, i dont mean to get off the subject, but if you read down it explains why the cleveland has this tendency to wear the cam down, to much of an extreme angle on the valve trane..
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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ok that didnt work the way i wanted it to ,, i suck at computers
don't know about that ...but this forum has an "edit" feature...you can edit a post instead of making a new one to correct something.


I'll look for that article ...never heard of the issue before.

S CP
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #14
sorry for so many posts, its the second paragraph i keep getting kicked off the site..
 

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heres an article, i dont mean to get off the subject, but if you read down it explains why the cleveland has this tendency to wear the cam down, to much of an extreme angle on the valve trane..
I just read the article and I still do not understand why a Cleveland has such extreme valve train problems that only a roller cam would cure. I've built a few 351-C engines and I never had any of the issues your article cited. Going one step further on this topic the 429-460 uses alot of the same valve train components and similar valve inclination angles and it has one of the most reliable valve trains in the industry. I've built and run several 460s with flat tappet cams using only a quality roller rockerarm and decent springs and have spun the engines in the mid 7K range without problems. Maybe I'm just lucky.:thumb: BTW I take magazine articles with a large grain of salt since their very existence relys on their advertising customer's parts sales. Not exactly an unbiased opinion.:no:
 

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The Good
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I have a similar engine to the bbc you described. I ran the comp extreme marine hyd roller. Its pretty mellow. little more than .5 inch of lift is all. Harlan Sharp roller rockers. This is in A jet boat with stock crank and rods. "A" impeller I was seeing 5200 rpm out of it with an 850 dp Holley. Timing and carb still need a little tune. I don't know what kind of load the Casale and prop put on the engine but you should at least see the rpm I was getting
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the reply, i have a 71 mach1 351c, 4v, quench heads, all original , when the car hit about 50 to 60 thousand miles the motor started to back fire and not run right, to make a long story short me and my dad took off a valve cover, he cranked the motor and i watched the rocker arms, and only a couple were actually moving! car was still running but not that good, the cam had worn almost all the lobes down, thats when i rebuilt the motor. Thats when I came across alot of info on cleveland probs, the intake valves on mine are 2.19, thats huge for a small block, or medium block or whatever you consider the 351c. even with the cam worn the car still had alot of power i was pretty impressed. The boat used to have a 396, I took it out to saveit for a car, or future project. The 454 is what im about to rebuild so im not sure on the rpms , i thought it would be less than the 396 but i wasnt sure, thanks for the info on the rpms on your motor in the jet boat, mine is probly going to be around the same i think, ?
 

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Aquacraft
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Discussion Starter #18
by the way 7 grand on a 460 is really impressive !!! wow!! considering the setup thats awesome. That gives me hope, for my little rebuild, maybe i will hit higher rpms than I thought.. but knowing my luck I will be throwing parts out the side of the motor at the same time....:bangmyhead:
 

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: BTW I take magazine articles with a large grain of salt since their very existence relys on their advertising customer's parts sales. Not exactly an unbiased opinion.:no:

I think that article is a load of crap......... but that's just me.


S CP :)eh:)
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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by the way 7 grand on a 460 is really impressive !!! wow!!

Actually that's no big deal with the right cam, intake and carb.


S CP :happy:
 
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