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Discussion Starter #1
Are they really what drive the US economy or are they the beneficiaries of wealth created by larger entities. I get that they employ a large percentage of the population. But the question is, do they really drive growth because of their innovation, contribution, etc. or is demand for their talent or service a result of something else?

I have all the respect in the world for small business owners. My friends that own small companies, a few who are on hard times now, are very talented, work hard and generally contribute to the local economy; Not so much as job creators but more as consumers.

This issue is being thrown around by both candidates during the current campaign, more than any other as I recall. Are they really looking out for Main Street or are they simply pandering to the large segment of the population just for the votes.

A couple of examples, my brother in-law is a welder by trade and has continued to stay busy throughout the recession. He has recently started a second company building elaborate stages for performers, television shows, etc. He has added staff, making money, etc. Is he the engine driving the economy or is he the beneficiary?

A couple of other friends have owned landscape companies for 20+ years. They typically have employed “documented” workers and pay them very little. They spend a lot on capital and materials - new trucks every couple of years and some equipment. For years they lived well because they added value. But now they are at the mercy of the success of others. There business have folded, they have gone back to lawnmowers in the back of old pick-up trucks, quite sad actually.

I have attached a couple of articles that attempt to address the issue. I don’t know that I agree with either, certainly not in their entirety, but I am interested in other’s thoughts.


The Truth Is That Small Businesses Are Not Good At Creating Jobs - Business Insider

Can small business save the economy? Probably not - Los Angeles Times
 

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I think a large contributor to job creation are companies in the service industry. Including foodservice. Looking at employee to revenue ratio they are probably near the top.
 

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Are they really what drive the US economy or are they the beneficiaries of wealth created by larger entities. I get that they employ a large percentage of the population. But the question is, do they really drive growth because of their innovation, contribution, etc. or is demand for their talent or service a result of something else?

]
Wealth is created by increases in productivity, or innovation that leads to productivity.
Small biz might create a lot of jobs, but that doesn't automatically equate to wealth of nations.

Can I go into biz and compete with walmart or mcdonalds? Mabye not. But keep in mind all the big companies were once small. We need to keep doing that, so we shouldn't stifle small companies with regs. Small biz has a couple advantages, one man's vision can become a reality. Also small bizmen are willing to cheat or bend the rules til they get big. Small biz can adapt quicker to serve (exploit) a market opportunity. And that does benefit the economy as a whole.

Small biz is people risking their own money. Big biz is risking shareholder $ while collecting a salary. Different mindset.

If your bigger question is what makes the whole world go round, that's a tough one. Everything is connected. If I want to start a lawn biz, I need Harbor Freight's cheap equipment. If I want to run a Subway, I need cheap part time help. As individuals we want to add skills so we can charge more. As consumers we want to pay less. To make that happen, everyone has to produce more. That increases our standard of living.

I think a large contributor to job creation are companies in the service industry. Including foodservice. Looking at employee to revenue ratio they are probably near the top.
Sure, that's jobs. They are better than nothing, but those low wage service jobs don't really add much to nat'l wealth. Those jobs can be stepping stones for people who add skills, then later start their own biz and hire more people.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
So, if you believe your premis, then it's a trickle down economy.
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No, not at all. These large entities all have emloyees that include top level talent as well as "unskilled", not my term but it works here. It is more in-line with the saying " a rising tide floats all boats." The question is what causes the tide to rise?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I thought that "regulation" was one area that was missing in both articles. It has become tougher for small business to start/compete/produce due to regulation, legal or otherwise.
 

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No, not at all. These large entities all have emloyees that include top level talent as well as "unskilled", not my term but it works here. It is more in-line with the saying " a rising tide floats all boats." The question is what causes the tide to rise?
I would think confident consumers
 

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This issue is being thrown around by both candidates during the current campaign, more than any other as I recall. Are they really looking out for Main Street or are they simply pandering to the large segment of the population just for the votes.
I think it's nothing more than pandering. Candidates that get elected are going to do whatever they want to do regardless of what who voted for them wants. Because politics has become big business, the only issues the elected officials care about are the ones that affect whoever bankrolled their campaign. It's all about pandering to get votes, and both sides do it. Look how Romney was all hardcore conservative in the primary, and now he's all moderate. Look how Obama campaigned in 2008 on immigration reform, but deprtations are up under his reign. You think that was the kind of immigration reform the hispanics who voted for him were expecting?
 

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I thought that "regulation" was one area that was missing in both articles. It has become tougher for small business to start/compete/produce due to regulation, legal or otherwise.
Over-regulation is a hindrance to both small and large businesses. A large business can absorb it better but will inhibit growth. But a small businesses can be smothered by regulations to the point of insolvency.
The more you're reading and learning the more you may find out we're right!! :happy:
 

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Over-regulation is a hindrance to both small and large businesses. A large business can absorb it better but will inhibit growth. But a small businesses can be smothered by regulations to the point of insolvency.
The more you're reading and learning the more you may find out we're right!! :happy:
Rep. Mike Kelly's speech on the house floor immediately comes to mind.


Rep. Kelly's Rousing Floor Speech Receives Standing Ovation and Chants of "USA!" - YouTube



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Are they really what drive the US economy or are they the beneficiaries of wealth created by larger entities. I get that they employ a large percentage of the population. But the question is, do they really drive growth because of their innovation, contribution, etc. or is demand for their talent or service a result of something else?

I have all the respect in the world for small business owners. My friends that own small companies, a few who are on hard times now, are very talented, work hard and generally contribute to the local economy; Not so much as job creators but more as consumers.

This issue is being thrown around by both candidates during the current campaign, more than any other as I recall. Are they really looking out for Main Street or are they simply pandering to the large segment of the population just for the votes.

A couple of examples, my brother in-law is a welder by trade and has continued to stay busy throughout the recession. He has recently started a second company building elaborate stages for performers, television shows, etc. He has added staff, making money, etc. Is he the engine driving the economy or is he the beneficiary?

A couple of other friends have owned landscape companies for 20+ years. They typically have employed “documented” workers and pay them very little. They spend a lot on capital and materials - new trucks every couple of years and some equipment. For years they lived well because they added value. But now they are at the mercy of the success of others. There business have folded, they have gone back to lawnmowers in the back of old pick-up trucks, quite sad actually.

I have attached a couple of articles that attempt to address the issue. I don’t know that I agree with either, certainly not in their entirety, but I am interested in other’s thoughts.


The Truth Is That Small Businesses Are Not Good At Creating Jobs - Business Insider

Can small business save the economy? Probably not - Los Angeles Times
Didn't Jobs and Wozniac start in their garage????
 

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So, if you believe your premis, then it's a trickle down economy.
You hit it on the head redneck. The country is carried on the backs of small business.
There is no way we could have won WWII without Ford, GM, Chrysler, Boeing, McDouglas or the numberous ship yards. But if anybody thinks those companies made every nut, bolt, screw, or bullet that was needed, guess again. Its no different today.
If the small companies that DID at one time supply GM and Ford all closed their doors, not a car one would get built. Same with aircraft, computers, what ever. Too many of those companies, and more importantly, the jobs are oversees now, or in Mexico. Small manufacturing in this country is all but done.

Its mostly service oriented now, and too much of it is unskilled labor.

Now what caused the shift?

I have said it before.
We pay a teen age kid to change all 4 tires on our car at a tire dealer 15.00 an hr and no benefits. Some guy at GM gets 35.00 plus benefits, plus pension and he installes 1 tires and rim, didn't mount it or balance it, and he has the help of a robotic arm that helps install the tire/rim assembly for him.
Now consider this. There are at least 100 times more people employed as tire changers in this country than GM, Ford, Chrysler combined. Tell me that small business does carry the country.

You look at the people that make spark plugs. Large company like Autolite/Fram/Allied Signal. You think more people are directly involved with making the damn plugs than are once the plug is made. It has to be shipped to the distributers, warehoused, shipped to the retailer, and maybe sold to a local mechanic. Now how many people were involved after the big company made the POS?
Same goes for 6 pak of Coke, box of ceral, a bottle of ketchup, or a paper napkin.



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Are they really what drive the US economy or are they the beneficiaries of wealth created by larger entities. I get that they employ a large percentage of the population. But the question is, do they really drive growth because of their innovation, contribution, etc. or is demand for their talent or service a result of something else?

I have all the respect in the world for small business owners. My friends that own small companies, a few who are on hard times now, are very talented, work hard and generally contribute to the local economy; Not so much as job creators but more as consumers.

This issue is being thrown around by both candidates during the current campaign, more than any other as I recall. Are they really looking out for Main Street or are they simply pandering to the large segment of the population just for the votes.

A couple of examples, my brother in-law is a welder by trade and has continued to stay busy throughout the recession. He has recently started a second company building elaborate stages for performers, television shows, etc. He has added staff, making money, etc. Is he the engine driving the economy or is he the beneficiary?

A couple of other friends have owned landscape companies for 20+ years. They typically have employed “documented” workers and pay them very little. They spend a lot on capital and materials - new trucks every couple of years and some equipment. For years they lived well because they added value. But now they are at the mercy of the success of others. There business have folded, they have gone back to lawnmowers in the back of old pick-up trucks, quite sad actually.

I have attached a couple of articles that attempt to address the issue. I don’t know that I agree with either, certainly not in their entirety, but I am interested in other’s thoughts.


The Truth Is That Small Businesses Are Not Good At Creating Jobs - Business Insider

Can small business save the economy? Probably not - Los Angeles Times


What do you do for a living?
 

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