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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Guys, what could black, sooty-like particles be in engine oil in a BBC? Could it be black moly assembly lube that has stayed in the engine through several oil changes? The crud does not seem to be magnetic and I cannot 'feel' it between my fingers. I have a plugged oil bypass and have used K&N oil filters since I put it together. It has great oil pressure. It's not a 'high hour' engine- hardly any use since the last time it went together but it has sat up for a long time between runs. I'm using a moroso oil pan with the drain on the side of the pan and It will not allow me to drain the oil pan completely.

Now the question of the hour- COULD black moly assembly lube in the oil possibly settle in the bottom of the pan and then get sucked up and pushed into the lifters and clog them up and cause HYD lifters (comp cams 858 HYD flat tappet lifter) to stick/collapse and make noise? I have the engine out of the boat and pulled down right now- got a layer of the black crud in the bottom of the pan. I assumed that assembly lube would assimilate with the oil and be drained out with oil changes??? No evidence of any water or corrosion anywhere- haven't measured the cam, but it looks to be in good shape. Been fighting this lifter noise deal a while- have reset the preload multiple times, and looked at valvetrain geometry. I pulled it down to get to the bottom of this deal and gonna do a cam/lifter change.
 

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Guys, what could black, sooty-like particles be in engine oil in a BBC? Could it be black moly assembly lube that has stayed in the engine through several oil changes? The crud does not seem to be magnetic and I cannot 'feel' it between my fingers. I have a plugged oil bypass and have used K&N oil filters since I put it together. It has great oil pressure. It's not a 'high hour' engine- hardly any use since the last time it went together but it has sat up for a long time between runs. I'm using a moroso oil pan with the drain on the side of the pan and It will not allow me to drain the oil pan completely.

Now the question of the hour- COULD black moly assembly lube in the oil possibly settle in the bottom of the pan and then get sucked up and pushed into the lifters and clog them up and cause HYD lifters (comp cams 858 HYD flat tappet lifter) to stick/collapse and make noise? I have the engine out of the boat and pulled down right now- got a layer of the black crud in the bottom of the pan. I assumed that assembly lube would assimilate with the oil and be drained out with oil changes??? No evidence of any water or corrosion anywhere- haven't measured the cam, but it looks to be in good shape. Been fighting this lifter noise deal a while- have reset the preload multiple times, and looked at valvetrain geometry. I pulled it down to get to the bottom of this deal and gonna do a cam/lifter change.
To answer your question about moly lube for all of the above? .......YES, YES, YES , AND YES!
If there was ever a case of "if some is good, alot is better" NOT holding true, it would be with moly lube. A little is too much, some is way too much.



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Bob, what is your opinion of using "old school" Victor assembly lube?? I still have about four cans of it left.
 

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Bob, what is your opinion of using "old school" Victor assembly lube?? I still have about four cans of it left.
I am not familiar with Victor Assembly lube. The "old School"lube I know of is Lubriplate Extreme Pressure lube. It is an off white yellowish light grease. No body hardly uses that any more because if it sets in a unfired engine to long it turns to hard paste.


Any thing black will be moly based. It only has 2 uses in an engine assembly IMO, cam break in for flat tappets, and a thread lube for fastners. It has no other use. And in both cases, it is normal for people to use way too much.

To much of the stuff circulating can spell death to plain bearings like rod, main, and cam bearings.



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Bob, the Victor assembly lube looked about like honey and came in a squeeze can, not as thick as STP which I never liked using, seamed to glaze the bearings, and your right about the Lubriplate grease, I had to re-assemble several engines that were shelved for a couple of years that had "dried out paste" in them. The Victor was about like 90 W. gear oil but light colored. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a can to check out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Good to know...

Thanks GN7- I didn't realize that too much would not be good- I think I put it on everything that moves. This helps me feel a little better about the lifter issue as I know that the engine was very clean when I assembled it and couldn't imagine them getting trashed up. I'm gonna replace the cam/lifters and check a few mains/rods. Is there anything specifically to look for on the mains/rods as a symptom of what too much of that lube could do?
 

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Bob, the Victor assembly lube looked about like honey and came in a squeeze can, not as thick as STP which I never liked using, seamed to glaze the bearings, and your right about the Lubriplate grease, I had to re-assemble several engines that were shelved for a couple of years that had "dried out paste" in them. The Victor was about like 90 W. gear oil but light colored. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a can to check out.
For certain parts during engine assembly(primarily roller lifters), I use an STP and oil mix, figuring that it is stickier than oil alone.
 

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I am not familiar with Victor Assembly lube. The "old School"lube I know of is Lubriplate Extreme Pressure lube. It is an off white yellowish light grease. No body hardly uses that any more because if it sets in a unfired engine to long it turns to hard paste.


Any thing black will be moly based. It only has 2 uses in an engine assembly IMO, cam break in for flat tappets, and a thread lube for fastners. It has no other use. And in both cases, it is normal for people to use way too much.

To much of the stuff circulating can spell death to plain bearings like rod, main, and cam bearings.
Hmm,, we just talked about the grease and moly lube the other day.
 

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Thanks GN7- I didn't realize that too much would not be good- I think I put it on everything that moves. This helps me feel a little better about the lifter issue as I know that the engine was very clean when I assembled it and couldn't imagine them getting trashed up. I'm gonna replace the cam/lifters and check a few mains/rods. Is there anything specifically to look for on the mains/rods as a symptom of what too much of that lube could do?
If your taking the engine that far apart, just look for scaring or grooves from junk on the mains and rods. Chances are, they will be pretty polished. Its probably a good thing that it does't have a lot of hours on it. The stuff is like polishing compound. It doesn't tear things up, but it will buff stuff. Its great for breaking in a cam, and is fine between two steels. But it plays hell with soft metals.

Be thankful you didn't spend the money for coated rod and main bearings. Because the stuff wouldn't be there any more.:no:

If your installing a new flat tappet cam, your still going to have to use the stuff. But you only need a light coat on the lobes and the lifter bottoms. Everywhere else gets oil or assembly lube like. The only place the moly will be is the lifter/cam interface, and and fastner threads. And even those, its a light coat, and wipe away any excess after the fastner is tightened.



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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
assembly lube

Sorry guys if this has been discussed- I'm not on the dyno forum often and missed it. I'll search better next time. I'll let everyone know what I find with the bearings.
 

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Sorry guys if this has been discussed- I'm not on the dyno forum often and missed it. I'll search better next time. I'll let everyone know what I find with the bearings.
Better to ask than not know. I know some of the red stuff that comes with some of the various brands of cams seems way too runny to me, got to imagine there is not much of it left on the cam lobes and lifters by the time the engine is fired up, so that is my reason for using Isky Revlube on any flat tappet cams that I assemble.
 

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How bout the Joe Gibbs stuff ?.....
I have not used, or even seen any of the Joe Gibbs stuff to be able to voice an opinion. I understand that their break in oil is very good, but you still have to have proper cam lube on any flat tappet cam and lifters, regardless of the oil and any additives.
 

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Normal...

IMO, the bearings look fine....You mentioned you've had this lifter issue for a while, since the very beginning?? Any galled rockers? If the springs were mentioned I missed it, but I went through something similar, and although the springs seemed right "on the seat", the "over the top" pressure was too stout for the hyd lifters.... Did the springs come with the cam in a "kit"?
Also have had girdle interference do the same thing, as well as tight guides when they warmed up a bit.....Sorry if this has already be mentioned...
Ray
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Issues

I had no issues during break in with the lifters. The first problem I had was after the engine sat up for a long time. My thoughts are that maybe since I cannot drain the oil pan completely, that there was a bunch of that moly lube in the bottom of the pan and it got pushed into the lifters and gummed them up. I did leave the engine sat up for a long time and the valves got very stiff in the guides- had to pull the covers and free five valves- when I tried to fire it off it turned over very stiffly and ran raggedy when it fired. Once I shot some penetrating oil on the valve guides and bumped them with a rubber mallet they freed on up- one of the things I am doing during this teardown is getting the valve guides looked at and maybe honed to proper clearance. the Cam is a Comp Cams 280AH and it came as a kit with springs, lifters, keepers, locks, etc... The rockers are Comp Pro Magnum rollers.

I adjusted the lifter preload several times, to several amounts of preload and the noise would not go away- even entertained the idea that the cam lobes were going away- but it doesn't seem to be the case. I ran it anyway, making more noise than I thought it should and ended up with the roller rocker roller tip actually wearing a slight pattern on top of some of the valve tips- the pattern is centered on the valve tip, so the geometry seems to be decent. I think the clearance from hinky lifters not doing their job, or excess pressure from tight sticky valves hammered the damn tips of the valves. Some valves were rotating, some were not apparently.

I finally got fed up with it and pulled it- and am in the process of deciding what needs fixing/adressing.

I have several issues- tight valve guides, problematic lifters, and possibly some contact with the pistons/valves at some point. Nothing is bent badly, but I'll be able to tell when I pull the heads this weekend if I had contact. Best I can tell, valves are straight- they rotate true in the guides, and pushrods are straight- I pulled them and rolled them on a flat surface. If there was piston/valve contact it was minimal- but if they did hit I'm gonna get new valves and the heads reworked completely.

My plan right now is to get the guides seen about, replace the cam & lifters, and do a bearing check- then reassemble and start off fresh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Lifters

I have seen it suggested in several places on the net that Comp Cams went through a time period in the early 2000's where they had some bad batches of lifters- that is around the time period that this rig was first put together- so it is a very real possibility that I have some bad lifters. This boat/engine has not seen a whole bunch of use due to one issue or another. I think the main problem I have is issues due to it sitting up for long periods.
 

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To much of the stuff circulating can spell death to plain bearings like rod, main, and cam bearings.
The stuff is like polishing compound. It doesn't tear things up, but it will buff stuff. Its great for breaking in a cam, and is fine between two steels. But it plays hell with soft metals.

Be thankful you didn't spend the money for coated rod and main bearings. Because the stuff wouldn't be there any more.:no:
IMO, the bearings look fine....
Ray

Really Ray? They look exactly like I expected them to. Not saying there is anything terribly bad there, but not what I like to see in a fairly fresh engine.
The moly is the primary reason the OP's bearing look the way they do. That top coating on the OPs bearings is a breakin layer, its the babbit overlay. Its gone. Would the engine still be fine, sure. Imagine the stuff that did that to those bearings being in that engine for years of boating. What would the bearings look like then. And the oil or oil pressure would probably be the scapegoat for the wear


Like I said, the OP should be thankful he didn't waste the money on coated bearings, because the coating would sitting in the pan.

Ray, these are from a full season of racing with over 14 dead engine full throttle starts. Notice the coating is still there. Trust me, the dry film coating is much easier to buff off than the babbit, and moly will remove it in a heartbeat
Thats the point of my posts. You don't want any more of that stuff in your enigne than absolutely necessary. I am thankful that I run a roller and need none of it.



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So with that pan setup and the drainline hose like the OP stated, how do you get ALL THE OIL out of it? I have the same setup and using a handpump I get about a 1/2 cup of oil out and I hear it sucking air in the pan when it gets down low. Then I wait about 15-20 minutes and it will suck another 1/2 cup and again and again.... how do you guys get it all out????

I measure my oil removed until I have 10 quarts and its sucking air but I know there is some residual oil in there....

Thanks
 
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