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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK guys, anyone have any experience with the older "Hays" clutches "Stinger" ignitions?? It's a conversion kit installed in a GM type points distributor using a magnetic pickup as a trigger, and what appears to be a CD box running off a standard automotive type coil.....
Upon re install, I get no spark..... Studied the wiring using pictures taken prior to removal, and everything is as it was.... I stuck a "known good" points distributor in it and got great spark using the existing coil and totally bypassing the CD box.... This system worked fine last week, and the only thing that changed was the coil and dist laid on the shelve...... I've checked the 5 wires from the box for continuity, and they all show good.... Pretty simple really, a 12V "hot" from the + side of the coil, (shows 12V), a Ground to an intake bolt, a wire from the - side of the coil, also running to the box, and a 2 wire quick plug from the box tied into the magnetic trigger...... (The pickup and trigger wheel appear to be standard early Mopar stuff)..... There is/was some motor oil up in the trigger area, and a "skint" wire at the base of the housing coming from the trigger.... (it is far clear of any arcing or grounding, unless it could be feeding the other wire???)

Since the "box" never left the boat, my gut tells me the issue is in the trigger.... Checking the trigger continuity, I get about 1/3 scale resistance, and it doesn't change as the "wheel" goes by......

Any Mopar guys with "trigger" knowledge? What should I see on an Ohm meter? AND, should it change with wheel rotation??....
Ray

PS Yes, I have called "Centerforce clutches" (formally Hays)in Prescott, but the only guy that might know something about this antique only works until 2PM.....
 

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OK guys, anyone have any experience with the older "Hays" clutches "Stinger" ignitions?? It's a conversion kit installed in a GM type points distributor using a magnetic pickup as a trigger, and what appears to be a CD box running off a standard automotive type coil.....
Upon re install, I get no spark..... Studied the wiring using pictures taken prior to removal, and everything is as it was.... I stuck a "known good" points distributor in it and got great spark using the existing coil and totally bypassing the CD box.... This system worked fine last week, and the only thing that changed was the coil and dist laid on the shelve...... I've checked the 5 wires from the box for continuity, and they all show good.... Pretty simple really, a 12V "hot" from the + side of the coil, (shows 12V), a Ground to an intake bolt, a wire from the - side of the coil, also running to the box, and a 2 wire quick plug from the box tied into the magnetic trigger...... (The pickup and trigger wheel appear to be standard early Mopar stuff)..... There is/was some motor oil up in the trigger area, and a "skint" wire at the base of the housing coming from the trigger.... (it is far clear of any arcing or grounding, unless it could be feeding the other wire???)

Since the "box" never left the boat, my gut tells me the issue is in the trigger.... Checking the trigger continuity, I get about 1/3 scale resistance, and it doesn't change as the "wheel" goes by......

Any Mopar guys with "trigger" knowledge? What should I see on an Ohm meter? AND, should it change with wheel rotation??....
Ray

PS Yes, I have called "Centerforce clutches" (formally Hays)in Prescott, but the only guy that might know something about this antique only works until 2PM.....
Ray, the thing triggers by opening the negative on the coil to ground. No diffferent than old timey points did. Now if I read your post correctly, you have a GROUND FROM THE COIL NEG TO A MANIFOLD BOLT?????? When the hell is the coil ever NOT GROUNDED when its wired like that? If you do have it wired like that, remove the ground from the coil to the manifold and try it.

The box will need a full time ground wire. Its pretty simple Ray. The box is now the points that trigger the coil. The box needs a ground to be able to open and close the ground to the COIL.

BUT THE COIL CANNOT BE GRAOUNDED FULL TIME!!!!!!!



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Discussion Starter #3
Ah, no.......

Ray, the thing triggers by opening the negative on the coil to ground. No diffferent than old timey points did. Now if I read your post correctly, you have a GROUND FROM THE COIL NEG TO A MANIFOLD BOLT?????? When the hell is the coil ever NOT GROUNDED when its wired like that? If you do have it wired like that, remove the ground from the coil to the manifold and try it.

The box will need a full time ground wire. Its pretty simple Ray. The box is now the points that trigger the coil. The box needs a ground to be able to open and close the ground to the COIL.

BUT THE COIL CANNOT BE GRAOUNDED FULL TIME!!!!!!!
No Bob, the coil - side is not grounded, it is the ground wire from the box that attaches to the manifold bolt..... And yes, I have taken the tach out of the system, I have "hot wired" the coil, I have added a jumper from the box ground to the battery ground, I have by-passed the ballast resistor... And as mentioned, verified the coil as "good" using a different distributor without the box.... The "Box hot" attaches to the coil + side of the ballast, but the "R" terminal off the starter solenoid is/was attached to the (IMO) wrong side of the ballast/same side as the ign switch, so there is no ballast by pass in the "crank" position, but that is the way it was for decades without any problems.... And again, I've taken the ballast out of the circuit with no change...... IMO, it's coming back to the trigger circuit..... That is why I'm asking about impedance through the mag pick up..... No trigger, no spark......... It would seem the trigger/switch should be "closed" except when the "wheel" goes by to break the connection magnetically and the coil/box looks for another place to ground, ie: the spark plug..... BUT, there is no difference in resistance through the switch as the wheel passes....Maybe I'm not fully understanding the "mag pick up" and how it works??
Ray
 

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No Bob, the coil - side is not grounded, it is the ground wire from the box that attaches to the manifold bolt..... And yes, I have taken the tach out of the system, I have "hot wired" the coil, I have added a jumper from the box ground to the battery ground, I have by-passed the ballast resistor... And as mentioned, verified the coil as "good" using a different distributor without the box.... The "Box hot" attaches to the coil + side of the ballast, but the "R" terminal off the starter solenoid is/was attached to the (IMO) wrong side of the ballast/same side as the ign switch, so there is no ballast by pass in the "crank" position, but that is the way it was for decades without any problems.... And again, I've taken the ballast out of the circuit with no change...... IMO, it's coming back to the trigger circuit..... That is why I'm asking about impedance through the mag pick up..... No trigger, no spark......... It would seem the trigger/switch should be "closed" except when the "wheel" goes by to break the connection magnetically and the coil/box looks for another place to ground, ie: the spark plug..... BUT, there is no difference in resistance through the switch as the wheel passes....Maybe I'm not fully understanding the "mag pick up" and how it works??
Ray
OK Ray, you can duplicate the pickup by simply disconnecting the lead that goes to the pickup, and shorting it out with a wire across the 2 terminals. The pickup is nothing more than a switch just like the points were.



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Discussion Starter #5
2 wire

OK Ray, you can duplicate the pickup by simply disconnecting the lead that goes to the pickup, and shorting it out with a wire across the 2 terminals. The pickup is nothing more than a switch just like the points were.
So, the 2 wire plug FROM the box can be shorted across to trigger the spark, right? OR is un shorting the trigger? This can be done without damaging the box?... .I'm leaning towards the oil that ran up the shaft while stored on it's side in a plastic bag. I'm quite sure oil has no place in the operation of that trigger.... I'll mess with it some more tonight. This whole job/boat has been one headache after another, a job I really didn't want, and as usual, "no good deed goes un punished"......
Ray
 

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I got my 65 Mustang fastback in 93 and it had a stinger ignition on it. In 2 years I went thru 3 or 4 of the stinger boxes.... With no other changes to the car. They would just die for no rhyme or reason, when they moved form midway city (less than a mile from me) I put in a crane Hi6 in 1996 or 97 and it hasn't given me any trouble since. I don't think they have manufactured a new stinger ignition in the last 20 years, and they are an epoxy sealed unit, not serviceable..... It's probably time to update your ignition.
 

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I got my 65 Mustang fastback in 93 and it had a stinger ignition on it. In 2 years I went thru 3 or 4 of the stinger boxes.... With no other changes to the car. They would just die for no rhyme or reason, when they moved form midway city (less than a mile from me) I put in a crane Hi6 in 1996 or 97 and it hasn't given me any trouble since. I don't think they have manufactured a new stinger ignition in the last 20 years, and they are an epoxy sealed unit, not serviceable..... It's probably time to update your ignition.
This is funny. Who do you think BOUGHT Hays ignitons. I have no idea why you had trouble with the Hays, but they were damn good boxes. Everybody seems to think they were failures and thats why they are gone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Crane simply did away with the name. Why Crane did away with the idea of the Hays is beyond me. But it isn't because it didn't work. Its the very same concept as the I.C.E. out of Austraila. And that thing kicks ass.

Joe Sherman proved numberous times that the Hays would out HP a MSD 6 on a almost everything he installed it on.



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So, the 2 wire plug FROM the box can be shorted across to trigger the spark, right? OR is un shorting the trigger? This can be done without damaging the box?... .I'm leaning towards the oil that ran up the shaft while stored on it's side in a plastic bag. I'm quite sure oil has no place in the operation of that trigger.... I'll mess with it some more tonight. This whole job/boat has been one headache after another, a job I really didn't want, and as usual, "no good deed goes un punished"......
Ray
With an ohlm meter connected to the trigger and box disconnected the meter should show some kind of fluctuation... and the usual check for the rest of system is a test light connected to + and touch it to one or the other of the pickup wires...that should trigger the coil.....
A little oil wont affect the pickup....just for the heck of it...check the gap on the pickup for each cylinder....upper dizzy bushing is reasonably tight?
Do you have your glasses on?:)bulb:)hand
 

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This is funny. Who do you think BOUGHT Hays ignitons. I have no idea why you had trouble with the Hays, but they were damn good boxes. Everybody seems to think they were failures and thats why they are gone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Crane simply did away with the name. Why Crane did away with the idea of the Hays is beyond me. But it isn't because it didn't work. Its the very same concept as the I.C.E. out of Austraila. And that thing kicks ass.

Joe Sherman proved numberous times that the Hays would out HP a MSD 6 on a almost everything he installed it on.
The Stinger Ignition Boxes I had were about 6"x4" grey metal castings with the whole back sealed with black epoxy and one plug that came out of it, nothing like the Crane Hi6 that replaced it. In 93-95 I had a couple of the Stingers fail, after they were no longer around to get replacements I got the Crane and it's run reliably from 95 til now. I'm not saying the Stinger wasn't good, the first one was in the car for years, but after it died none of the replacements lasted. I still have one of their Hays 3 finger clutches in that car that has been great.
 

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The Stinger Ignition Boxes I had were about 6"x4" grey metal castings with the whole back sealed with black epoxy and one plug that came out of it, nothing like the Crane Hi6 that replaced it. In 93-95 I had a couple of the Stingers fail, after they were no longer around to get replacements I got the Crane and it's run reliably from 95 til now. I'm not saying the Stinger wasn't good, the first one was in the car for years, but after it died none of the replacements lasted. I still have one of their Hays 3 finger clutches in that car that has been great.
I didn't say the Stinger was anythng like the Crane 6. The crane 6 is a CD ignition and the Stinger was a Hi Energy Induction ignition. Two totally different animals. Ever think that the "re[placement" Hays boxes you got were in fact Crane built. the things went to hell when they bought the company. Crane jumped on the CD band wagaon and dumped the induction deal. Way stupid!!
Now, one of the best ignitions around is the I.C.E. out of Austraila. If Crane would have stuck with the Hays design and built the right, it might very well have become as big or bigger than MSD. Instead they elected to built an inferior MSD type ignition. Oh well, MSD sells 100 boxes to Cranes 1 HI6



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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Problem solved.....

I called Centerforce and talked to Mike Hays, he said the only thing that ever went wrong with these ignitions was/is the "air gap"....And yep, he nailed it. The gap was huge, not the .002-.005 he recommended... Since I don't have a non magnetic feeler gage, I "eye balled" about .003 and WA LA, SPARK..... It was such a pleasure to talk to a rep that actually KNEW something about the product, a product he hasn't sold for a decade or more, but was right there when his father introduced it..... AND, he said he has a few left over "Stinger" boxes left and offered to totally check out the system if I couldn't find a solution..... Nice guy.....
Ray

PS How/why that air gap changed is beyond me since I did nothing inside the cap other than point the rotor as it went back in.....AND, the screw was tight-tight-tight.......
 

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Ray...shoulda called me on this...;) I have a complete Hays/Stinger ignition sitting here. I'd have given yuou the same answer.
Hays really had nothing to do with the "ignition" part. That was developed by a guy named Lesley Long. Hays just did the distributor conversions and distribution. I've had many really great discussions with Mr Long and for what it's worth, that Stinger ignition is a better ignition than any MSD6 or 7 box. Mr Long is an electronics genius but unfortunately he couldn't compete with the marketing of MSD.
You know not to use anything more than a stock coil, right? ;)
Hang on to that thing.:))THumbsUp
 

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This is funny. Who do you think BOUGHT Hays ignitons. I have no idea why you had trouble with the Hays, but they were damn good boxes. Everybody seems to think they were failures and thats why they are gone. Nothing could be further from the truth. Crane simply did away with the name. Why Crane did away with the idea of the Hays is beyond me. But it isn't because it didn't work. Its the very same concept as the I.C.E. out of Austraila. And that thing kicks ass.

Joe Sherman proved numberous times that the Hays would out HP a MSD 6 on a almost everything he installed it on.
Mr Long sent his ignition to a number of reputable racers to test and prove it's potential. It made more power on just about anything it was tested on, including a (well known) Pro Stock program. Again, and unfortunately, it was "politely declined" in favor if the MSD, even though it made more power.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
CD ignitions

Mr Long sent his ignition to a number of reputable racers to test and prove it's potential. It made more power on just about anything it was tested on, including a (well known) Pro Stock program. Again, and unfortunately, it was "politely declined" in favor if the MSD, even though it made more power.
I know this isn't a CD, but in the interest of the "little guy", my father made, from scratch, a CD system for his 55 Cad. This was an upgrade from the transistor ignition he had made for the 50 Merc. Later, mid 60s, we put one on my Ford hotrod and picked up 2/10s on the ET. Yeah I know, it could have been different conditions, but he went to his grave thinking his system was better than the stock FE Ford stuff.....He died in 76 and my mother gave me the 55 Cad that had the same points/cap/rotor/plugs/wires he installed in the late 50s..... Mike Hays said these "Stingers" were absolutely bullet proof, and I believe him......BUT, the 12V source needs to go through the ballast before it sees the box....
Ray
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ice ????

Joe Sherman said he would put the Stinger up against any MSD and guarantee it would make more power. I bet if you disected a I.C.E. ignition and a Stinger you would find out the I.C.E. was a lot closer to the Stinger than any thing else. And it not surprising that more and more people are jumping over to the I.C.E.
Well Bob, I'm showing my ignorance again..... I've never heard of the ICE ignition you refer to.... You know me, I'm a MAG guy, and in my pleasure jet stuff I use standard old points and condenser stuff... Funny, with very few exceptions, you can fix just about anything that goes wrong with those old distributors right on the water...Even file points with a matchbook striker strip!!!
Ray
PS for years I thought the DUI ignitions had to do with ignition interlock devices!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Knocking??

Yeah I have met your type. Ignitions from Wright Bros airplanes and fuel systems that are simple controlled leaks similar to a brick with a hole in it. the makings of the perfect racing system. If you were born at the turn of the 20th century and went to high school with Henry Ford and Edison.
Hey, Fords and light bulbs are still around aren't they??:))THumbsUp Don't knock Henry and Tom, their shit worked, and still does.......Kinda like mine......:D
Ray
PS those "controlled leaks" tubes, nothing sexier on a boat than those controlled leakers...
 
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