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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This has to be eliminated. Churches have ducked paying trillions in taxes over many years. I'm tired of subsidizing religion! Talk about an entitlement!! I find it ironic how people criticize social programs, Unions, Government workers yet say nothing about the freeloader tax dodging churches. They hide behind the separation of Church and State to duck paying taxes. What a joke. End the hypocrisy. Pay your damn taxes like all other businesses!!!
Where are the Conservatives on this?? Where are the Liberals on this???
 

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Red Blooded American
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I'm thinking you may need to take up religion. If you feel it's unfairly profitable, start your own church and preach the gospel of Zombie. I have no doubt you will have quite an unusual following until they find out how much work it is and start seeking truth.

How's about you join and faithfully attend a church for a decade. Offer your services to help administer the responsibilities and help balance the books then get back to all of us. Until then, this is like the Government of Mexico telling the United States of America what's wrong with our constitution and how its time for a change. I sincerely doubt you will even catch the correlation. :)hand
 

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Marine Organism
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Hell Yea, you ZOMBIE!!! I hear ya!!! We need to get the rest too!!! :mad: Take the YWCA, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, Boys and Girls Club of America, Red Cross, Salvation Army, 4-H Clubs, etc.

Again, idiot. :)hand
 

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Hell...why don't we end all tax exemptions for everyone. And while we're at it lets end all deductions for every taxpayer. Afterall the government does not have enough money and we all know they know how to spend our money much better than we do. But in order to make everything fair....you know how the lefties like to make things fair, why don't we end all the tax issues once and for all.....100% tax rate on everyone. If you make $100K/annually, that is your tax. Short and sweet, your tax return can be done on a post card with 2 lines....Line 1] How much did you make? Line 2] Send it to us. :D
 

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Boatless Member :(
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I don't attend church and haven't since I was 12.

I think your idea is poorly thought-out and lacks proper analysis of the real world. This thread seems to be started just to get a rise out of people.
 

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This has to be eliminated. Churches have ducked paying trillions in taxes over many years. I'm tired of subsidizing religion! Talk about an entitlement!! I find it ironic how people criticize social programs, Unions, Government workers yet say nothing about the freeloader tax dodging churches. They hide behind the separation of Church and State to duck paying taxes. What a joke. End the hypocrisy. Pay your damn taxes like all other businesses!!!
Where are the Conservatives on this?? Where are the Liberals on this???
The goverment does't subsidize churches.Check your Websters for definition.BTW nobody really cares what your tired of.
 

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Living in a cage of fear
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Although Zombies' post is confrontational in it's context, He does touch on an area where fraud is rampant, IMO.
"Churches" is a broad and varied, all encompassing brush.
It includes everything from the Tabernacle in Salt Lake down to the snake charmer in a shack in the deep South. From Catholics and Protestants down to "The Church of whatever".

I have known more than one person who was a card carrying minister that used that strictly for tax reasons.
One in particular evaded tax's at a very high level using this as a shield, and I found it extremely disgusting. He had over 50 employees at one point, and every year he took 25 of them to his time shares in Mexico (Actually, his "Churches'" time shares).
Much of his income was diverted and "washed" through his so called Church. All of this was "Church" expense.

Then You have the very large and well known Churches that have holdings and earn dividends on a global scale. Big Business, basically.
I have never seen a tax return schedule for a Church, so am not familiar with the details of separation of taxable and non-taxable monies.

But I know that unscrupulous people DO use that as a shelter.

When I was much younger, I had a very good friend and co-worker at a machine shop. He was younger than Me, and heavily involved in his church. (He actually was the youngest board member of his church in the Country). He married the Preachers daughter.

After He was married, his FIL spent a good deal of time at the machine / repair shop we opened together. The conversations that I was privy to with the Preacher centered around one topic, and one topic only....money.
I understand that this is a (if not "THE") major part of the job, and is what keeps Churches functioning, just like anything else. But the shit that guy pulled was off the hook.
(He was not the same guy that had the time shares)
New Cadillac every year, wife dressed in furs, etc. I had zero respect for that guy.
He actually told m that the Church was strictly a business no less than any other, and his #1 job was to generate revenue.
My buddy eventually resigned from the board and took his tithe elsewhere.

So, I can't disagree with Zombie outright. Big Churches are big business, with political connections, representation that can be bought and sold, lawyers and lobbyists, etc.

So, please school Me here. Where is the line drawn for Churches regarding taxable and non-taxable monies??
 

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This has to be eliminated. Churches have ducked paying trillions in taxes over many years. I'm tired of subsidizing religion! Talk about an entitlement!! I find it ironic how people criticize social programs, Unions, Government workers yet say nothing about the freeloader tax dodging churches. They hide behind the separation of Church and State to duck paying taxes. What a joke. End the hypocrisy. Pay your damn taxes like all other businesses!!!
Where are the Conservatives on this?? Where are the Liberals on this???
Funny how the guy that whines the loudest for cutting entitlements can't see this, but then his head is so far up his ass, he'll never see daylight again.hil:) After all, if something benefits him, he's all for it. But when it doesn't, it needs to be cut.:)sphss Talk about narrow mindedness and selfish behavior.:)hand
 

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"On the road again..."
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Although Zombies' post is confrontational in it's context, He does touch on an area where fraud is rampant, IMO.
"Churches" is a broad and varied, all encompassing brush.
It includes everything from the Tabernacle in Salt Lake down to the snake charmer in a shack in the deep South. From Catholics and Protestants down to "The Church of whatever".

I have known more than one person who was a card carrying minister that used that strictly for tax reasons.
One in particular evaded tax's at a very high level using this as a shield, and I found it extremely disgusting. He had over 50 employees at one point, and every year he took 25 of them to his time shares in Mexico (Actually, his "Churches'" time shares).
Much of his income was diverted and "washed" through his so called Church. All of this was "Church" expense.

Then You have the very large and well known Churches that have holdings and earn dividends on a global scale. Big Business, basically.
I have never seen a tax return schedule for a Church, so am not familiar with the details of separation of taxable and non-taxable monies.

But I know that unscrupulous people DO use that as a shelter.

When I was much younger, I had a very good friend and co-worker at a machine shop. He was younger than Me, and heavily involved in his church. (He actually was the youngest board member of his church in the Country). He married the Preachers daughter.

After He was married, his FIL spent a good deal of time at the machine / repair shop we opened together. The conversations that I was privy to with the Preacher centered around one topic, and one topic only....money.
I understand that this is a (if not "THE") major part of the job, and is what keeps Churches functioning, just like anything else. But the shit that guy pulled was off the hook.
(He was not the same guy that had the time shares)
New Cadillac every year, wife dressed in furs, etc. I had zero respect for that guy.
He actually told m that the Church was strictly a business no less than any other, and his #1 job was to generate revenue.
My buddy eventually resigned from the board and took his tithe elsewhere.

So, I can't disagree with Zombie outright. Big Churches are big business, with political connections, representation that can be bought and sold, lawyers and lobbyists, etc.

So, please school Me here. Where is the line drawn for Churches regarding taxable and non-taxable monies??
I see the situation pretty much the same way. Many of the "ultra churches" with preachers flying helicopters to several locations each Sunday are far more than the original intent of the tax laws.

When churches start running credit unions and other for profit centers, lines become very hazy.

I have no problems with tax except status for the church buildings and original intent operations, but there are are far too many crossing the lines of these original intents.
 

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Funny how the guy that whines the loudest for cutting entitlements can't see this, but then his head is so far up his ass, he'll never see daylight again.hil:) After all, if something benefits him, he's all for it. But when it doesn't, it needs to be cut.:)sphss Talk about narrow mindedness and selfish behavior.:)hand
I think it's time we have a cage match and you 2 can get your aggressions over with.......Will you be wearing a mask to conceal your identity Ram?
 

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Living in a cage of fear
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I think it's time we have a cage match and you 2 can get your aggressions over with.......Will you be wearing a mask to conceal your identity Ram?
I'm laying smart money on "The Doctor"!

Funny, isn't it? A troll with no identity attacking a MAN with no known vices?:)sphss
 

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I agree, the exemption for churches needs to be addressed. I don't know that complete loss of tax exempt statuts is the answer because there is a great deal of "charity" involved with many religeous institiutions. The problem is the mass fraud perpetrated by many of the leaders and those involved in the administration, not unlike our govt. hhhhhmmmmm.
 

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I'm not sure how property tax is done for non-profits like this but anyway...

If you want to tax non-profits, just levy the normal property tax with a small exemption to cover most churches. That way these "ultra churches" you speak of will at least be paying somewhat of a fair share. There's a big church here that built a new location not long ago. Right on the side of the interstate and about 10 times larger than was needed. We call it Six Flags over Jesus.
 

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Red Blooded American
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While I openly practice in my religion, and have for half a century, I have long believed there are financial abuses in much of religion. Most congregations pay their clergy, staff, choir, teachers, etc. quite well, in many instances. They also financially supporting the national/worldwide organization that governs their religious body. Many, if not most, also operate free enterprise business entities and hide them under the guise of religion with a tax exemption and some go as far as to seek grants for their programming from government entities.
My church does none of these. No clergy is paid a dime - myself included after 50 years of service, not a dime. Every private business owned by my church pays its fair and regular business taxation and they always have. My church goes as far as to operate our own welfare system to keep our membership off the government welfare rolls by taking care of our own from within, saving our governments around the world billions of dollars annually and it's funded 100% by our membership.

While this thread was not about Church abuses, where there are many, it was about tax exemptions for religions. Even if the likes of Zombie, who obviously knows less about church operations than he does ram's grooming habits, got his way and Churches had to pay tax on their meetinghouse sites and taxes on their enterprises, it wouldn't make one thousandth of the difference he believes it would and most Churches (excluding the self-sufficient world-wide major organizations) would fold within the first year leaving another zero taxation to be received.

In short, he knows not of what he speaks!
 

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Joel Osteen, who took over his Father's scam,,,,, er, church, bought the Summit in Houston. The Summit was the former home of the Houston Rockets and seated around 15-18K for concerts. Live TV broadcasts selling ad time and members I've been told have to ante up around $40 to the collection plate each Sunday. A real money maker.....

To me this whole thing is a racket and there's no telling how Osteen handles taxes. I do know it's a whole 'nuther world than the little church down the street that uses money to help the community.
 

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While I openly practice in my religion, and have for half a century, I have long believed there are financial abuses in much of religion. Most congregations pay their clergy, staff, choir, teachers, etc. quite well, in many instances. They also financially supporting the national/worldwide organization that governs their religious body. Many, if not most, also operate free enterprise business entities and hide them under the guise of religion with a tax exemption and some go as far as to seek grants for their programming from government entities.
My church does none of these. No clergy is paid a dime - myself included after 50 years of service, not a dime. Every private business owned by my church pays its fair and regular business taxation and they always have. My church goes as far as to operate our own welfare system to keep our membership off the government welfare rolls by taking care of our own from within, saving our governments around the world billions of dollars annually and it's funded 100% by our membership.

While this thread was not about Church abuses, where there are many, it was about tax exemptions for religions. Even if the likes of Zombie, who obviously knows less about church operations than he does ram's grooming habits, got his way and Churches had to pay tax on their meetinghouse sites and taxes on their enterprises, it wouldn't make one thousandth of the difference he believes it would and most Churches (excluding the self-sufficient world-wide major organizations) would fold within the first year leaving another zero taxation to be received.

In short, he knows not of what he speaks!
Great post Doc. That pretty well sums it up.
 

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Marine Organism
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There is fraud and other abuses in most non-profit organisations large and small.

Blame our government for not regulating them enough. ;)
 

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dont care either way, i just dont see how thats going to help the situation. the problem isnt enough money, its that the money they currently have is piss poorly allocated. the number of people paying taxes hasnt changed...
 

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dont care either way, i just dont see how thats going to help the situation. the problem isnt enough money, its that the money they currently have is piss poorly allocated. the number of people paying taxes hasnt changed...
Excellent point.....It's all about how it's spent. But there is a lot of fraud involved in far too many churches and other non-profits that should be addressed. So far there haven't been any politicians with the cajones to attack the problem. Another instance of them fearing more about not getting re-elected than doing the job their office was created to do.
 
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