[Budweiser]

Are any of you guys aware of a general (or specific) value for torque per cubic inch, that indicates 100% VE for different compression ratios?

Looking for a format that reads similar to below. (values shown are guesstimates I pulled out of my ass)

1.00 ft.lbs./ci @ 8:1cr = 100%VE
1.05 ft.lbs./ci @ 9:1cr = 100%VE
1.10 ft.lbs./ci @ 10:1cr = 100%VE
1.15 ft.lbs./ci @ 11:1cr = 100%VE
1.20 ft.lbs./ci @ 12:1cr = 100%VE

 

[Unchained]

This should be good.

 

[eric tx20]

wow! I don't have to spend any more money, I am maxed out! the math should only make 1.27 to 1.29 per cubic in. at 10.5 comp. with 565ci. comes to 717.551 lbtq. 565ci at 13.5 comes to 788 lbtq, how does that compute to the ( I think dne or dnr something built a 565 that made like 900 lbtq and 1040 hp on pump gas ) you do use the volume efficiency # which is the same # used in figuring cfm and it does not work out to good for a NHRA 355 prostock truck

 

[eric tx20]

the math says a torque value of 1.27 per cubic inch at 10.5 compression and calculate a .0307 increase for every point of compression for a n/a motor. I also know a guy who says he built a motor with Chinese beads, it ran like shit, guess their isn't many hotrods in china

 

[Budweiser]

the math says a torque value of 1.27 per cubic inch at 10.5 compression and calculate a .0307 increase for every point of compression for a n/a motor. I also know a guy who says he built a motor with Chinese beads, it ran like shit, guess their isn't many hotrods in china

Is the 1.27 you mention maximum torque divided by cubic inches, torque at 100% VE divided by cubic inches, or something completely different?

I'm specifically interested in the values at only 100% VE, not maximum achieved or achievable at VE's greater than 100%.

 

[Budweiser]

I think this is one of SleeperCP's engines.

If you take the values above and below 100% VE and average them you get 518ft.lbs @ 100.35% VE (close enough), divided by 409 cubic inches...

1.266ft.lbs/CI @ 11.9:1cr . For my purposes I'd be fine just calling it 1.27ft.lbs/CI @ 12:1. I'm having trouble locating enough dyno sheets that report VE to draw any conclusion or average. Hoping some of you guys can help out and add your results to the pool or link to some.

 

[scott foxwell]

I think this is one of SleeperCP's engines.

If you take the values above and below 100% VE and average them you get 518ft.lbs @ 100.35% VE (close enough), divided by 409 cubic inches...

1.266ft.lbs/CI @ 11.9:1cr . For my purposes I'd be fine just calling it 1.27ft.lbs/CI @ 12:1. I'm having trouble locating enough dyno sheets that report VE to draw any conclusion or average. Hoping some of you guys can help out and add your results to the pool or link to some.

What determines percentage of VE? HOw is it being measured?
100% @ what rpm? Peak tq only? 100% VE can occur through a wide range of rpm.
Typically, VE falls off with rpm (unlike the above dyno sheet) and that's why tq falls off.

 

[Budweiser]

What determines percentage of VE? HOw is it being measured?
100% @ what rpm? Peak tq only? 100% VE can occur through a wide range of rpm.
Typically, VE falls off with rpm (unlike the above dyno sheet) and that's why tq falls off.

All good questions and points. I'm glad you chimed in.

To answer your Q's: As far as I know, airflow is measured with a "turbine" and VE is determined by comparing measured airflow to engine displacement and rpm.

What I'm trying to figure out is just a simple value for torque per cubic inch at 100% VE given different compression ratios. I could be wrong, but I don't think the rpm it occurs at will change the outcome much, if at all. Even if it occurs over a wide rpm range, the torque should be the same across the range too... Shouldn't it?

There's a lot of good conversation to be had around the subject and I suspect this thread will wander toward peak torque per cubic inch. I've read some threads you've participated in on that particular subject and my hat's off to you sir. )THumbsUp

I'm sure you have a good handful of N/A dyno sheets to reference. What are the numbers saying? CR for CR, is the torque at 100% VE (whatever rpm it may be at) divided by CID fairly consistent? What are they for 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. :1 CR's? If it is fairly universal and consistent, I can't imagine that would be proprietary or privileged info.

 

[Budweiser]

Something's off with that dyno sheet. Seems as though the VE is being calculated for a 369ish cid engine, not 409.

 

[scott foxwell]

All good questions and points. I'm glad you chimed in.

To answer your Q's: As far as I know, airflow is measured with a "turbine" and VE is determined by comparing measured airflow to engine displacement and rpm.

What I'm trying to figure out is just a simple value for torque per cubic inch at 100% VE given different compression ratios. I could be wrong, but I don't think the rpm it occurs at will change the outcome much, if at all. Even if it occurs over a wide rpm range, the torque should be the same across the range too... Shouldn't it?

There's a lot of good conversation to be had around the subject and I suspect this thread will wander toward peak torque per cubic inch. I've read some threads you've participated in on that particular subject and my hat's off to you sir. )THumbsUp

I'm sure you have a good handful of N/A dyno sheets to reference. What are the numbers saying? CR for CR, is the torque at 100% VE (whatever rpm it may be at) divided by CID fairly consistent? What are they for 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. :1 CR's? If it is fairly universal and consistent, I can't imagine that would be proprietary or privileged info.

I don't pay a lot of attention to VE numbers since it can be so widely manipulated. Should be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[IMPATIENT 1]

The afr on that sheet sure looks as if its runnin outta fuel pump or mainjet up high

 

[gn7]

The afr on that sheet sure looks as if its runnin outta fuel pump or mainjet up high

Most be a printer error because we all know the highly touted O2 near tells a lie.



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[scott foxwell]

Something's off with that dyno sheet. Seems as though the VE is being calculated for a 369ish cid engine, not 409.

Like I said, I've never seen VE continue to increase at upper rpm levels.
How much is going out the exhaust because of overlap? How well was the air turbine calibrated, or when was the last time it was calibrated? Couple things to consider.

 

[Unchained]

Most be a printer error because we all know the highly touted O2 near tells a lie.

So therefore it's better to never know what it is.
That's how we did it in the 1970's

 

[gn7]

So therefore it's better to never know what it is.
That's how we did it in the 1970's

Being the one that DEPENDS on the ECM to do your tuning for you because you haven't clue to do it yourself, the ECM would be pouring fuel to the thing long before it looked like that. I notice the carb didn't.



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[scott foxwell]

So therefore it's better to never know what it is.
That's how we did it in the 1970's

No, we learned how to read sparkplugs. THAT'S what's telling you what the engine wants or needs, not some formula plugged into a computer. 'Course, you have to actually understand a few things about an engine and now HOW to read a spark plug, but most people now days are just interested in the easy way. Knowledge is irrelevant. Results are all that matter.

 

[scott foxwell]

Being the one that DEPENDS on the ECM to do your tuning for you because you haven't clue to do it yourself, the ECM would be pouring fuel to the thing long before it looked like that. I notice the carb didn't.

Said it before and I'll say it again; carbs are infinitely intelligent. Computers; only as intelligent as the guy who tells it what to think.

 

[fc-Pilot]

The torque per cubic inch per VE means very little to me. Think about this. The average guy builds a hot motor and wants to put it on the dyno. It has big heads and big carbs and can move a ton of air. It gets on the dyno and does not put up good numbers, but since it is moving a lot of air it puts up decent VE numbers. The power tells you how efficiently the engine is using the available air and fuel, VE just says how much air it is moving. It the fuel atomization is terrible, it will still move air, just not have an efficient burn. An incredibly efficient burn will make more power than the VE might advertise.

Paul

 

[gn7]

The torque per cubic inch per VE means very little to me. Think about this. The average guy builds a hot motor and wants to put it on the dyno. It has big heads and big carbs and can move a ton of air. It gets on the dyno and does not put up good numbers, but since it is moving a lot of air it puts up decent VE numbers. The power tells you how efficiently the engine is using the available air and fuel, VE just says how much air it is moving. It the fuel atomization is terrible, it will still move air, just not have an efficient burn. An incredibly efficient burn will make more power than the VE might advertise.

Paul

It also does not tell you how well the cylinders are sealed, cam timing/air-fuel out the pipe, and the biggie, NOTHING about parasitic loses from friction, and pumping losses.

Two engines of the same size and compression ratio can be miles apart. Just look at a flathead Ford verses a 4.6 Mod Ford. That's extreme, but like Paul said, a simple cid/torque formula tells you nothing.



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[Unchained]

Being the one that DEPENDS on the ECM to do your tuning for you because you haven't clue to do it yourself, the ECM would be pouring fuel to the thing long before it looked like that. I notice the carb didn't.

Again you comment on something you never used and know nothing about.
I said months ago I would post up a graph showing my fuel curve that I programmed in from scratch to compare to yours but then of course you have none and have no clue where it is.