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I know rings have been through the mill on here.

My question is, the difference between the top ring gapless and the second ring gapless? What's the pros and cons? Are they really any better than conventional rings?

I've got a 468 NA BBC, single 1050 Dom, 12.5 comp, no n2o used for drag race only in a hydro.

Tim
 

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I know rings have been through the mill on here.

My question is, the difference between the top ring gapless and the second ring gapless? What's the pros and cons? Are they really any better than conventional rings?

I've got a 468 NA BBC, single 1050 Dom, 12.5 comp, no n2o used for drag race only in a hydro.

Tim
That would depend on if you are running a crank scraper and if so what will lube the bore? Lots of areas for lube but if compression retention is the main area of concern than consider the lube of the bore!! You may find that max H/P is great but the sacrafice may be the block!!!M
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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That would depend on if you are running a crank scraper and if so what will lube the bore? Lots of areas for lube but if compression retention is the main area of concern than consider the lube of the bore!! You may find that max H/P is great but the sacrafice may be the block!!!M
I read this 3 times and I still can't figure it out :)bulb :)sphss

Sleeper CP :D
 

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I'd suggest calling the guys at Total Seal. We decided to go with a gapless ring for our new blown alcohol motor. I've never run either a gapless ring or a blown motor. I talked to Keith at Total Seal 2 or 3 times deciding on what ring package to go with. Took some back and forth between Total Seal and my piston mfg to come up with the best combo for our engine.... We ended up going with a TNT gapless top, Napier second and standard tension oil ring.
We decided to go gapless to minimize the alcohol contamination in the oil. For higher end blown deals, Total seal recommends a Dyke top, gapless second and standard oil ring for maximum sealing. We went the other way due to the Dyke rings reputation for being rough on cylinders.
 

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Resident Ford Nut
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I know rings have been through the mill on here.

My question is, the difference between the top ring gapless and the second ring gapless? What's the pros and cons? Are they really any better than conventional rings?

I've got a 468 NA BBC, single 1050 Dom, 12.5 comp, no n2o used for drag race only in a hydro.

Tim
I have run zero-gap second rings for year's. I have no complaints with them. They still leak less than 2% if that means anything :)bulb before Winter 4 leaked 0, 2 @ 1%, [email protected] 2% leak. This after lot's and lot's of Nos.

Total Seal claims the top zero gap ring will make more power ... I would love to see an independent test on it. To be honest I think in a running engine a good set of conventional rings make just as much power. I think the bore preparation is more important than rather or not the rings are gap-less or not.

The next major re-build on the 565 will be: gas ported pistons with med-light rings and a vacuum pump, there's more power to be gained there then in the zero -gap ring.

The Total Seal Diamond ( non -zero gap) or C&A Hell Fire rings work just great, just pay attention to the final hone on the cylinder walls. (so I've been told) so there are conventional rings that work just as good if not better I've been told. I wonder what Cyclone used in his re-build :)bulb

Hope that helps. I have some great PM's from Warp Speed on rings, maybe he will give you his viewpoint on it.

Sleeper CP :D
 

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I know rings have been through the mill on here.

My question is, the difference between the top ring gapless and the second ring gapless? What's the pros and cons? Are they really any better than conventional rings?

I've got a 468 NA BBC, single 1050 Dom, 12.5 comp, no n2o used for drag race only in a hydro.

Tim
I have done a ton of dyno testing with gapless and conventional rings, save yourself the money and put in a conventional ring.Everthing I build I use total seal conventional rings.
 

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JE Pro Seal rings, lateral gas ports and a HIGH QUALITY piston to provide a HIGH QUALITY ring land.
The rest is left up to your machinist! ;)

Total Seal AP (conventional) rings are a nice ring, but there is better out there.

IMO
 

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That would depend on if you are running a crank scraper and if so what will lube the bore? Lots of areas for lube but if compression retention is the main area of concern than consider the lube of the bore!! You may find that max H/P is great but the sacrafice may be the block!!!M

I'm a little confused also.....but that's not hard to do sometimes! :)sphss
 

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I have done a ton of dyno testing with gapless and conventional rings, save yourself the money and put in a conventional ring.Everthing I build I use total seal conventional rings.
X2 Wouldn't pull a time from my pocket for zero gap 2nd, where does the gas that gets past the 1st ring go? Can't help but believe it could help unseat the top top ring. Thought this was the reasoning behind accumulator grooves, and running a larger 2nd ring gap. Can't comment on zero gap 1st, never ran them, just seems like a lot of money I could put somewhere else....like my wallet



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That would depend on if you are running a crank scraper and if so what will lube the bore? Lots of areas for lube but if compression retention is the main area of concern than consider the lube of the bore!! You may find that max H/P is great but the sacrafice may be the block!!!M
I read this 3 times and I still can't figure it out :)bulb :)sphss

Sleeper CP :D
Go back and read 3 more times and it will make even less sense



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X2 Can't comment on zero gap 1st, never ran them, just seems like a lot of money I could put somewhere else....like my wallet
Or spare pistons!!!! :)hand

Sorry GN....couldn't resist!! :p

I'm sure that remark will bite me in the ass sometime this summer!! :)sphss
 

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steelcomp was here
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I think the original idea for zero gap rings were for guys running aluminum blocks, and trying to keep teh rings seated with all the distortion going on in the cylinders. Guys running iron blocks thought it might work for them as well.
My thoughts on running a ZG second ring are as Ray says...trends today seem to be going with a larger secod ring gap so if one was to run one, it might make sense to run it in the top instead of the secong. Personally I don't believe they're of any benefit on an iron block. Round, properly finshed cylinders and quality pistons go a long way in helping the rings do their job.
JMO
 

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I have done a ton of dyno testing with gapless and conventional rings, save yourself the money and put in a conventional ring.Everthing I build I use total seal conventional rings.
Joey, what type rings did you put in Shawn Forrest's motor?
 

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Just another Wannabe
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Total Seal make great rings. Their finishing is more true than lots of other manufacturers. Nice precise measurements. That and I can ride my bike to their place.
But with that being said, the gapless second ring never made any sense to me. Or my engines. We actually tried one in a pretty peppy daily driven street engine to test their claim on longevity. It ended up throwing the top rings out due to top ring flutter and constantly being unseated by the second ring. Then the blowby and oil coming back in it's place. It got ugly. (Another unsuccessful test that taught us quite a bit!)
The gapless top ring starts to scare me as the trend to go to thinner top rings. But I have no proof to back it up, never tried them. Probably never will.
I actually have been using a good quality standard file to fit ring package. I have been using Akerly and Childs ring packages. Ray really knows his stuff and has helped me quite a bit. Great rings at a great price. (And I just got a Christmas card from them yesterday too.)
And about the HTD-Hellfire stuff. You do need to watch your boring. A standard bore is not rough enough to get these rings to seat. They require a 280 finish. (But that is off the top of my head, so don't quote me on that.)
 

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I read this 3 times and I still can't figure it out :)bulb :)sphss

Sleeper CP :D
Hey sleepy, it would have to do with windage and the oil splash that keeps the piston wall lubed! the last set of rings in a motor are oil srapers and when you run a z gap, dykes or any kind of zero gap ring then toss in a windage tray or crank scraper things get real dry!! sorry if I didn't elaborate on the statement:)handM
 

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I think zero gap 2nd rings became popular when common people started using leak down gauges. LOL.

Zero gap top rings do have some use for certain applications.

'Leak down' on a non-running engine is not that good of an indicator for how things seal under power and rpm. Kinda like a flowbench with exhaust ports. IMHO ;)
 

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Hey sleepy, it would have to do with windage and the oil splash that keeps the piston wall lubed! the last set of rings in a motor are oil srapers and when you run a z gap, dykes or any kind of zero gap ring then toss in a windage tray or crank scraper things get real dry!! sorry if I didn't elaborate on the statement:)handM
Keep it up Ol guy, the more you type the less sense you make.



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