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Discussion Starter #1
OK the new motor is long blocked " finally" and I was checking PR length and just now notice that the stems are lower than the retainer so as you guessed by now the rocker hits the retainer . Grinding the rocker is not an option. So I am thinking -.050 keepers and lash caps problem solved . In the past I have used +.050 to gain clearance and set them side by side to stockers and the protrusions where located at the same heights so I thought that the +.050's must be thinner to let the retainer ride higher on the stem ? So my question is all three keepers set side by side how could you tell which is which ?
 

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NEVER used +.050 "keepers" but have used different retainers for this purpose- that is what I would recomend
 

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steelcomp was here
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OK the new motor is long blocked " finally" and I was checking PR length and just now notice that the stems are lower than the retainer so as you guessed by now the rocker hits the retainer . Grinding the rocker is not an option. So I am thinking -.050 keepers and lash caps problem solved . In the past I have used +.050 to gain clearance and set them side by side to stockers and the protrusions where located at the same heights so I thought that the +.050's must be thinner to let the retainer ride higher on the stem ? So my question is all three keepers set side by side how could you tell which is which ?
The adjustment is typically made in the location of the tang in the keeper (I like to call them locks).
My question is why are your valves shorter than the retainers?
You can use a -.050 lock to bring the retainer down, but remember, you'll have to address your valve spring installed height. I wouldn't add the lash cap unless absolutely necessary. If your valve tip is that short, the lash cap may bottom out on the locks anyway. Typically a -.050 lock won't have the recess for the lash cap.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ok I know everybody likes pics .The first shows the relation between the stem and retainer "new valves with .250 tips"



This shows with .080 worth of feeler gage to take the place of lash caps and with PR checker set at +.125



So with .060 or .080 lash caps I can resolve the contact problem

And now this ,one stock lock and one +.050 other than machining marks how could you tell ? What to look for ? Where to measure?

 

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Who made those locks. Is this a roller cam or flat tappet. Like Steel said, I have NEVER seen a lock that gained clearance by making the lock body thinner. Its always done with the location of the tang. If those are Crane locks, or Crane retainers, you need to be very aware they make 2 types of locks and retainers. And one type lock is not compatible with any one elses retainers. Little confused by the "set the PR checker at +.125" Do you mean you opened an adjustable PR .125? .125 from what. Where are you starting? How are you determining what the PR length should be.



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Discussion Starter #6
OK the lock on the left is a +.050 and the lock on the right is a stocker . The +.050 is a crane unit and the stocker is just that. By visual appearance the tang is in the same place? The motor in the pics is a solid roller deal and the +.125 number was stock plus .125. I should also state that the locks in the pics are NOT being used in this motor but rather used to help identify the differences of locks of different heights. So lets say you , me or whoever bust down a set of heads and have a pile of locks you reach in and pick one up how would you know what hight it was ?
 

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OK. I was afraid of that. Cranes are strange animals. Hopefully your retainers are Crane. do you still have the Part numbers for all this? some Crane retainers and locks are not even compatible with other Crane retainers and locks.

Look at the bottom of page 349 of the link:CRANE CATLOG. If you have the part numbers, I may be able to help you. Are yoou deaing with 10* or 7* retainers? what spring height did you end up with in the pics you posted?



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steelcomp was here
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I would argue that those aren't different locks. They look like standard 7* locks. HOWEVER, like GN said...Crane has some oddball stuff and you need to make sure your'e not mixing apples and oranges.
The image center is still non-op for this website I guess due to the new changes, but as soon as I can, I'll post up some pics of locks both + and - .050 and you'll see...it's real obvious when you know what to look for.
 

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Steel, they are different. Look at the thickness of the material. The Multifit locks are thicker than standard locks. I wonder if he has a multifit Crane, and a standard Crane side by side? This is the same problem the guy on Boat freaks had, except opposite. That guys locks held the retainer too low. If you took a multifit Crane retainer, and installed a standard type Crane lock in it, it could result in the retainer sitting too hi on the valve. When your dealing with Crane, you have to make certain you using the right locks with the right retainers.



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I understand what your saying and showing Steel. I think the difference in the retainers that Flat Screwed is showing is the difference between Multifits and standard Crane stuff. Notice the thickness of the material? They are +.050, or -.050. They are a different series or type of retainer inside the Crane family. Multi fits must be used with Multifit retainers. Standard Crane locks and retainers are compatible with other brand stuff. Crane multifits are not compatible with anything but multifit Crane. And the difference between the 2 is the thickness of the locks, and the hole size in the retainer.

Look at the thickness of the locks you posted. Look at the locks Flat Screwed posted. Notice the thinner lock? That may be a multi fit Crane. Remember the problem on Boat Freaks. He put a standard lock in a multi fit retainer and the lock was to thick to go down inside the retainer. If you put a thin multifit lock in a standard retainer, the vlave and lock would be way to far down inside the retainer.


LINK: crane retainers
Notice in the first sentence of the "10* retainer" it says they use a smaller outside diameter lock.

Drop a multifit lock into a standard retainer, and the valve is going to way lower in the retainer dish. Just the opposite the guy on boat freaks had when he put a standard lock in a multifit retainer, and the valve sat waaaay hi.

Still, all this gets back to what is the spring height right now.



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steelcomp was here
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Bob, if the one on the left is +.05, then it would stand to reason it would be the thinner of the two.
The retainers in the pics appear to have the wrong locks. They look recessed in the hole (can't even see the tops of the locks), allowing the retainer to sit higher than normal.

Flat, Is it possible that you have 7* locks in 10* retainers? The locks you show a picture of are 7* locks. Or maybe you have the Crane retainers with standard locks, and not the "Crane" locks?
Something's not right there.
 

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OK let me try again;) All locks of varing installed hieghts are, to my knowledge, done with the tang as you posted.

Now, as you said, it appears that the lock is to far down in the retainer. I see this too.

The MULTI FIT Crane retainer is to thin for a standard retainer,. It will do just what we are looking at. I believe he does in fact have Crane locks . Just the wrong locks for those retainers. Reguardless of the manufacture of the retainer. It probably a standard type retainer with a thin ass Multifit lock in it.
Even multifits use a relocted tang to change the spring height. The 2 locks he posted are from 2 different series of locks. Standard(thicker) and Multifit(thinnner)

If you put a multifit lock into a standard retainer, you will end up with the deal Flat screwed has, the retainter too hi, valve tip too short/spring height too tall
If you put a standard lock into a multifit retainer, you end up with the results the guy on Boat freaks had with the retaine too low, tip sticking up too hi/spring height too short.

Making sense now?



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OK let me try again;) All locks of varing installed hieghts are, to my knowledge, done with the tang as you posted.

Now, as you said, it appears that the lock is to far down in the retainer. I see this too.

The MULTI FIT Crane retainer is to thin for a standard retainer,. It will do just what we are looking at. I believe he does in fact have Crane locks . Just the wrong locks for those retainers. Reguardless of the manufacture of the retainer. It probably a standard type retainer with a thin ass Multifit lock in it.
Even multifits use a relocted tang to change the spring height. The 2 locks he posted are from 2 different series of locks. Standard(thicker) and Multifit(thinnner)

If you put a multifit lock into a standard retainer, you will end up with the deal Flat screwed has, the retainter too hi, valve tip too short/spring height too tall
If you put a standard lock into a multifit retainer, you end up with the results the guy on Boat freaks had with the retaine too low, tip sticking up too hi/spring height too short.

Making sense now?
I understood it on Boatfreaks, the first time you explained it here, and the second time. :D
The OP said in his pic, one is standard, the other (on the left) is Crane +.05. My point, and the purpose of my pics. was to help show that neither of the ones he showed is + or - anything. They're both standard height locks. (The +.05 in my pic is a 7* Crane lock.) Installed height can't be adjusted with lock diameter by allowing the locks to sit higher or lower in the tapered bore. That would change the bearing surface and load relationship between the locks and retainer and alter the design considerably.
If you take a pair of calipers and carefully measure the two locks on your computer screen, I think you'll find theylre very much the same. Only way to really tell is to put them on a valve and slide a retainer over them. If they are different dia's. and have different installed heights, then IMO you're right...one is a multifit, and the other is standard. One will fit the retainer properly, the other won't.
 

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Ok I know everybody likes pics .The first shows the relation between the stem and retainer "new valves with .250 tips"



This shows with .080 worth of feeler gage to take the place of lash caps and with PR checker set at +.125

Use the midlift method and get that pushrod length correct(after you get the retainer-lock delema sorted out).
Unless your just running a HUGE cam it appears that they are to short and the rockers are working over arc.
 

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Yeah Hass, thats why I ask in the beginning, how did he determine the PR length. But he also has to be very very carefull with Crane locks and retainers. Wrong lock in the wrong retainer, or versa visa, and he will drop a valve guaranteed. Like Steel said, if the wrong lock/retainer combo is used, the mating surface area flies out the door and you loose all the clamping effect. Too many people think the tang holds the valve in place. The tang is only there to locate the lock on the stem. Which why they move the tang to determine retainer height. The clamping force comes from the taper, and the surface area between the retainer and the lock, and the lock and valve. Anytime the tangs are used to hold the valve, there are multiple tangs. Like Cleveland Fords, and some MoPars.




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keepers

NEVER used +.050 "keepers" but have used different retainers for this purpose- that is what I would recomend
If I remeber right on my 572 build my .050 keepers only gave .030 more spring heighth. I am guessing that retainer lowering locks don't give you a true .050.
 

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You can't run the lash caps on a lock unless you have a lash cap recess. The The lash cap will interfere. All of my locks we move the tang to change the install height. You move the tang to the top of the lock to reduce install height and move the tang lower to increase.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thank you everybody for enlightening me on this lock issue . Just to clear things up the 7 degree locks in the pics are NOT used in this motor but were used as examples to show different lock heights as well as the placement of the tangs. So based on my limited experience with the locks in the pics I just had to conclude that something else had to change other than the placement of the tangs. So again, THANKS!

So on to push rod length . In the past I just tried to get the wheel to track in the middle of the stem with as narrow a pattern as possible. But having read all of the mid lift postings here I decided it was time to try something different . So with pics and everything here's what I got.


First thing, Find TDC simple enough



Then with dial indicator establish opening events at .050 to make sure cam is timed correctly







And with everything checking out OK I rotated the crank until I had 1/2 the gross lobe lift and marked the degree wheel



Installed the push rod with a stock dimension and rotated the crank back to mid lift on the degree wheel and checked for 90 degrees between the stem and rocker



Now at this point it was difficult at best to eyeball 90 degrees so I made up this gage to help . I took 1/2 the roller dia + the stem height above the retainer and cut that amount out of a piece of sheet metal the broke it into a shallow Z shape.



And by placing this gage on top of the retainer I was able to see if the rocker trunnion is high or low . And in this case the rocker is low indicating that the PR is too short .



And after a few adjustment WHALA



So now the wheel tracks from the center to the exhaust side at mid lift and back to center at full lift and with minimal track width.



Now mind you all changes to PR length was done at the cam heel and then rotated back up to mid lift according to the mid lift mark on the degree wheel . And one more thing , all this could be done long befor the crank is even installed just by using a mark on the cam gear.

So how did I do ?

Mr. Straub I take it you got the goods?
 
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