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Discussion Starter #1
I bought a new Dart 540 short block from Shafiroff + Dart Pro 1 heads
The heads had Isky springs with 140/ 380 lbs springs
The cam is Crane HR #139021 with 610 / 632 and 234 /242 and the spring requirement is
closed 150 lb open 466
I have Crane cam , lifters and springs for the application - changed the Iskys
I also have valve train rattle at idle
The advice I'm getting is the springs are too strong
What do you think?
Application
3200 lb Placecraft Jet boat - AA Legend jet - 6000 RPM limiter
 

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A little history.

Crane has supplied Mercruiser for there HP500, 500EFI, 525 EFI's for ever. There cams, valvesprings, retainers, locks, lifters, and roller rockers. Crane has learned a ton over the years. Reason for mentioning thoder motors in particular is because your cam has lobes from some of the above.

So.............Crane knows their cams/lobes in a marine environment better than most.

Going back in history , Crane used lesser psi springs (like you have) in the Merc motors and the dependability wasn't all that great. Broken springs was common near the 150-200hr mark. Valve float became too common within these hrs. People where upgrading too better springs on their own...after the fact of course. Worked great. Crane then starting experimenting with higher rate springs all the way up to 200 or 210psi closed. Past where many, including themselves, thought HR's could handle. Tests where successful...Thus for all these reasons why they recommend what they do now.

People and companies not very involved with marine engines haven't learned all this yet and chances are they will start off with what seems to work okay in cars.
 

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Sorry, just re-read your post. I answered above thinking you where asking which to use. You used the Crane springs.


What roller rockers are you using ? What oil weight and type ? What are your oil temps when the clattering is happening ? What valve covers are you using? How did you determine your pushrod length ? Are your rockers centered on the valve ? How much pre-load did you set the rockers/pushrods at ?
 

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spring rates seem fine for a Hydraulic roller. what kind of preload did you put on them when setting and are they new?
 

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steelcomp was here
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Hydraulic rollers make a lot of noise..
X2.
The springs you have are a minimum. I know with Morels you can run 200#/500# to well over 6000 rpm if your cam permits. IMO your cam is a little on the short side for a jet boat with a 540 and Pro1's, even with a AA. Jets don't really care much about "marine". Also, which Pro1's?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the good feed back

I was aware of Crane supplying Merc & thats why I picked them. Crane support recommended the cam I bought after I gave them them application specs. I pulled the weaker springs and am running the Crane 150 / 466. Crane Hyd Roller lifters. Crower SS Enduro 1.7 rockers. Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs. Set lifters with intake off - rollers on cam heel - finger twisted pushrod while turning adjuster nut to achieve zero lash then added 3/4 turn. Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
The noise isn't a loose lifter sound but kind of a machine drone - at idle. Using a hose in the ear in the open space in the intake manifold it is the same from the front to back. Intake Victor JR - 850 marine Holley. Everything is new with 1 day on the dyno + 3 hrs. Oil Joe Gibbs 20- 50 break in oil , will change to Syn in another 6 hrs. We didn't notice the sound on the dyno - door shut and oil may have never been up to full temp. I have an oil temp gage and run 225 deg after it warms up. I can live with the sound just thought odd for hyd lifters. I looked at spring recommendation from Comp Cams & Isky for similar profiles and their recommendation was for weaker springs - way weaker. The pump has new thrust bearing & bowl bushings - sounds not coming from there. 10 -1 compression MSD Pro Billet dist . Thanks again for your knowledge
 

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steelcomp was here
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I was aware of Crane supplying Merc & thats why I picked them. Crane support recommended the cam I bought after I gave them them application specs. I pulled the weaker springs and am running the Crane 150 / 466. Crane Hyd Roller lifters. Crower SS Enduro 1.7 rockers. Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs. Set lifters with intake off - rollers on cam heel - finger twisted pushrod while turning adjuster nut to achieve zero lash then added 3/4 turn. Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
The noise isn't a loose lifter sound but kind of a machine drone - at idle. Using a hose in the ear in the open space in the intake manifold it is the same from the front to back. Intake Victor JR - 850 marine Holley. Everything is new with 1 day on the dyno + 3 hrs. Oil Joe Gibbs 20- 50 break in oil , will change to Syn in another 6 hrs. We didn't notice the sound on the dyno - door shut and oil may have never been up to full temp. I have an oil temp gage and run 225 deg after it warms up. I can live with the sound just thought odd for hyd lifters. I looked at spring recommendation from Comp Cams & Isky for similar profiles and their recommendation was for weaker springs - way weaker. The pump has new thrust bearing & bowl bushings - sounds not coming from there. 10 -1 compression MSD Pro Billet dist . Thanks again for your knowledge
I'll ask again...which Pro one's?
I can just about guarantee your pushrods are way too short, and FYI...if those are new Crane lifters, they're not the same as the good "old" Crane lifter.
 

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I was aware of Crane supplying Merc & thats why I picked them. Crane support recommended the cam I bought after I gave them them application specs. I pulled the weaker springs and am running the Crane 150 / 466. Crane Hyd Roller lifters. Crower SS Enduro 1.7 rockers. Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs. Set lifters with intake off - rollers on cam heel - finger twisted pushrod while turning adjuster nut to achieve zero lash then added 3/4 turn. Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
The noise isn't a loose lifter sound but kind of a machine drone - at idle. Using a hose in the ear in the open space in the intake manifold it is the same from the front to back. Intake Victor JR - 850 marine Holley. Everything is new with 1 day on the dyno + 3 hrs. Oil Joe Gibbs 20- 50 break in oil , will change to Syn in another 6 hrs. We didn't notice the sound on the dyno - door shut and oil may have never been up to full temp. I have an oil temp gage and run 225 deg after it warms up. I can live with the sound just thought odd for hyd lifters. I looked at spring recommendation from Comp Cams & Isky for similar profiles and their recommendation was for weaker springs - way weaker. The pump has new thrust bearing & bowl bushings - sounds not coming from there. 10 -1 compression MSD Pro Billet dist . Thanks again for your knowledge
Auh... This sounds suspect !!! ... I think I will let Scott or Gn-7 handle this .... E:D
 

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I'll ask again...which Pro one's?
I can just about guarantee your pushrods are way too short.

You can type faster than me , dammit .lol :)grn ... E:)hand
 

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Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs. Set lifters with intake off - rollers on cam heel - finger twisted pushrod while turning adjuster nut to achieve zero lash then added 3/4 turn. Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
The noise isn't a loose lifter sound but kind of a machine drone - at idle.
Did you use one of these high dollar whiz bang thingies as well?

Exactly how did you go about "figuring the pushrod length. Little plastic thingie, or strictly "center of the valve?

By any chance, did "Scotty" throw in a dual idler gear drive in with the "deal", or is it a chain.

Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
I'll ask again...which Pro one's?
Geez old man, been wearing your saftey sheild, or do you have an aluminum sliver in your eye?



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Discussion Starter #12
Springs

The Pro 1 's are 325's
No plastic thinge
Comp Cams adjustable pushrod to determine length
 

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The noise I think you are describing is normal at idle. Spring rate is fine. Almost positive the push rods are too short. Pro 1's will almost NEVER end up with the roller tip in the center of the valve with proper geometry. I don't think that is causing your noise, just something I think you should address.
In the interest of keeping this from becoming the worlds longest thread.... do a search of proper valve train geometry here. You will find lots of fun reading. :D
 

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Did you use one of these high dollar whiz bang thingies as well?

Exactly how did you go about "figuring the pushrod length. Little plastic thingie, or strictly "center of the valve?

By any chance, did "Scotty" throw in a dual idler gear drive in with the "deal", or is it a chain.





Geez old man, been wearing your saftey sheild, or do you have an aluminum sliver in your eye?
LOL...I guess when I read "the roller in the center of the" valve I just stopped reading. :)sphss
 

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steelcomp was here
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:)devil
The noise I think you are describing is normal at idle. Spring rate is fine. Almost positive the push rods are too short. Pro 1's will almost NEVER end up with the roller tip in the center of the valve with proper geometry. I don't think that is causing your noise, just something I think you should address.
In the interest of keeping this from becoming the worlds longest thread.... do a search of proper valve train geometry here. You will find lots of fun reading. :D
 

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Crower SS Enduro 1.7 rockers. Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs.
The noise I think you are describing is normal at idle. Spring rate is fine. Almost positive the push rods are too short. Pro 1's will almost NEVER end up with the roller tip in the center of the valve with proper geometry. I don't think that is causing your noise, just something I think you should address.
In the interest of keeping this from becoming the worlds longest thread.... do a search of proper valve train geometry here. You will find lots of fun reading. :D
Depending on WHICH Crower Enduro rocker he has, there is a Crower SS rocker with a .090 setback on the rocker trunnion just for DART and other heads with long valves that is intended to relocate the roller on the center. Some what like pissing into the wind, but it will get the roller much closer to the center when the PR length is correct. The Crower's catalog showing a .050 set back is a misprint. The setback is actually .090 as shown in the Summit link
LINK: Crower Enduro setback rocker

LINK: crower rocker-set back trunnion

No need to "search" for the rocker thread. I keep it handy because it comes up so often. Its actually part of the tech stickys at the top of the "On the Dyno" front page
LINK: Steel's rocker geometry thread

Regardless, you can bet the PR are wrong, but if he is using the backset rockers, he just isn't as far off as he could be. And I agree, its not his noise. Probably normal noise, or a gear drive, or even a roller T chain.



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Discussion Starter #17
Your right using Steel comps 1/2 lift geometry process

Used the steelcomp guide ( thankyou) the intake's were too short - corrected
The Ex are .025 off. The only company making the correct size is Crane for a fat price
suggestions? Were talking no more than 6000 RPM - Jet pleasure boat
 

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You can get any length PR you like from manton or smith bros.

Have you seen the lengths available from Scorpion. Click on the "show all" They are decent PRs with a .120 wall. Way stronger than anything you hand them.

don't get too hung up on .025. The kind of anal scrutiny is OK for Steel. He only does it because it makes the rest of us mere mortals look bad.

LINK: Scorpion PR lengths



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I was aware of Crane supplying Merc & thats why I picked them. Crane support recommended the cam I bought after I gave them them application specs. I pulled the weaker springs and am running the Crane 150 / 466. Crane Hyd Roller lifters. Crower SS Enduro 1.7 rockers. Used an adjustable push rod checkers to get pushrod length. Rollers are on valve stem ctrs. Set lifters with intake off - rollers on cam heel - finger twisted pushrod while turning adjuster nut to achieve zero lash then added 3/4 turn. Pro ones are 325 - inconel ex valve upgrade. Valve covers are tall aluminum marine from CP performance
The noise isn't a loose lifter sound but kind of a machine drone - at idle. Using a hose in the ear in the open space in the intake manifold it is the same from the front to back. Intake Victor JR - 850 marine Holley. Everything is new with 1 day on the dyno + 3 hrs. Oil Joe Gibbs 20- 50 break in oil , will change to Syn in another 6 hrs. We didn't notice the sound on the dyno - door shut and oil may have never been up to full temp. I have an oil temp gage and run 225 deg after it warms up. I can live with the sound just thought odd for hyd lifters. I looked at spring recommendation from Comp Cams & Isky for similar profiles and their recommendation was for weaker springs - way weaker. The pump has new thrust bearing & bowl bushings - sounds not coming from there. 10 -1 compression MSD Pro Billet dist . Thanks again for your knowledge
Is adding more carburation to this set up worth while :)bulb
 

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your not going to get much larger without going to a dominator. 950 holleys ARE NOT bigger than 850s. They flow roughly the same, with the 850 getting a slight nod on the top end with a down leg booster. But they are very very close. I like the 950 better because the throttle response tends to be better on the 950 over the 850, as strange as that may sound. The 950 is a killer carb for a well set up SBC. You couild spend some money and have the carb worked for more flow, but a dominator would still kick its ass.

It wants a dominator on a good Edelbrock victor



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