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Yeah, but seven or eight seasons? That would just be weird IMO..

GT :)hand
not really weird, if this were a solid cam, he'd broken valvetrain parts earlier in the motors life. the valvesprings would have pointed out the issue to him:D since he was runnin a hyd cam with weak spring pressures, nothing happened. its got the wrong pushrod length in it, there's no doubting that. but i know dan and he likes mph, and if it were me and i had to redo some of the valvetrain, i'd want more performance outta it too, not just making it right. 8yrs in a jetboat and ya know the springs are prob shitttt, the lifters will have wear in the plungers, so why not fix it and get more hp at the same time?not to mention picking up some rpms since the lifters can do it, which in a jetboat equals more mph.
 
Discussion starter · #22 · (Edited)
not really weird, if this were a solid cam, he'd broken valvetrain parts earlier in the motors life. the valvesprings would have pointed out the issue to him:D since he was runnin a hyd cam with weak spring pressures, nothing happened. its got the wrong pushrod length in it, there's no doubting that. but i know dan and he likes mph, and if it were me and i had to redo some of the valvetrain, i'd want more performance outta it too, not just making it right. 8yrs in a jetboat and ya know the springs are prob shitttt, the lifters will have wear in the plungers, so why not fix it and get more hp at the same time?not to mention picking up some rpms since the lifters can do it, which in a jetboat equals more mph.
Right about pretty much all this.

The pushrods actually came out of a failed build. I re-used the block, but a different cam, different heads, valves, lifters etc. The engine builder that saved my ass (different shop) was able to salvage lots of stuff from the failed motor and the pushrods were some of that hardware. Although probably not perfect, I was assured that they would work and apparently he was right. Lots of hard running on it and it's lasted way longer than I thought it would.

I want to do a stroker, but would like to nurse this one through the summer. If I can make it work with a set of lifters and pushrods that sounds like an afFORDable option.

I might still have the miss issue to deal with, but at least I can move forward knowing the valvetrain is right and the bearings aren't going to hell in it.
 
Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago.
At this point, if it were my engine I'd think that the longblock is just fine and simply needs new spark plugs.
I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and...it seemed excessive.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment

Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash. Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.


They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash.
First of all, do not confuse bottoming the lifter plungers with having zero lash. At zero lash, the lifter plungers have not yet been forced/recessed into the lifter body. Once they begin moving into the lifter body, you are beyond zero lash. I realize that this is very elementary but sometimes a lifter plunger is weak and the drag observed while twirling the pushrod is not interpreted for what it is. The lifter plunger should be preloaded only 0.020"-0.030" beyond zero lash. Once zero lash is achieved, I rarely go past 1/4-turn with my roller rocker adjusters to get that 0.020"-0.030" of lifter preload.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

It could also simply be that the hydraulic lifters have bled down and thereby lowered the rockers down against the retainter....not that I like what I see and frankly I question proper valve train geometry because if it. Just out of curiosity, what is your valve spring installed height and what are the lengths of your pushrods?

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the lifters were all pumped up?
This is absolutely unnecessary if you can discern when zero lash is achieved and then depress the plunger that initial 0.020"-0.030" into the lifter body.

In regards to dropping a cylinder, I do not yet see anything out of the ordinary, other than needing spark plugs. If the culprit of the faltering cylinder is something else, you haven't found it yet and given the cylinder pressure I think your longblock is fine...but if your lifters are fully pumped up and you still have rocker arm contact against the retainers, you have something else to address regardless of whether it's playing a part in your engine concerns or not.

LO
 
just taking a guess and sayin the cam isn't huge, if you do the midlift method , you're pushrods are gonna grow alottt:D

 

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just taking a guess and sayin the cam isn't huge, if you do the midlift method , you're pushrods are gonna grow alottt:D

Don't you mean " Grow Alotta"? LOL, sorry, it was sitting right there and I couldn't help myself...:D Tried to stop, but it was no use.;)

GT :)hand
 
Dan, im not sure about fords, but with a chevy when you install edelbrock heads, you also need to install longer pushrods as the valves are longer than stock valves from a factory head. you may be experiencing the same issue. if the edelbrock heads for the ford come with longer valve stem length than stock, you may be running stock length pushrods salvaged from the other build. this will certainly cause the issues you describe and show in the pics.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Dan, im not sure about fords, but with a chevy when you install edelbrock heads, you also need to install longer pushrods as the valves are longer than stock valves from a factory head. you may be experiencing the same issue. if the edelbrock heads for the ford come with longer valve stem length than stock, you may be running stock length pushrods salvaged from the other build. this will certainly cause the issues you describe and show in the pics.
Thanks to all. The one thing that seems to be consistent consensus-wise is the pushrod length and I agree.

I'm definitely going to pursue this.
 
Dan, before you started the valve adjustment process, did you make a mental note of the lockscrew position in the adjuster? How do they look compared to where you started?

You said the valves were so loose they took more than a turn to get to zero lash. If that was the case you would have been able to rock the rocker arm back and forth with absolutely no effort. You also would have heard an almighty clattering from your valve train while running. Was this the case? If you have never done this before, it is real easy to not have the right "feel" for hitting zero lash. I've been doing it for 3+ decades as a mechanic, although only on my own stuff for the last 15 years, and I still double check the first couple to be sure my "feel" has been recalibrated :). I really suspect you have bottomed out your lifter plungers and would highly recommend re-running the whole procedure. Do this before chasing valvetrain geometry issues based on pics of ---possibly--- incorrectly adjusted valves.
 
:) I agree

The valve train worked before just fine, correct. You may have needed a slight adjustment to get it running back to where you were used to, but reading through what was done sounds like what Oldsquirt is saying, you've bottomed out the plunger and the rockers are hitting the retainers because they are down way to far on the rocker studs.

I remember adjusting hyd lifters back in the day with the motor running, back'em off till they click then 1/4-1/2 turn, good to go. Did get a little sokey and messy though:)sphss

This coming from a guy that ate 3 motors in 4 months:D
 
Discussion starter · #30 · (Edited)
Dan, before you started the valve adjustment process, did you make a mental note of the lockscrew position in the adjuster? How do they look compared to where you started?.
Yes, and I've put them all back where they were originally.

You said the valves were so loose they took more than a turn to get to zero lash. If that was the case you would have been able to rock the rocker arm back and forth with absolutely no effort. You also would have heard an almighty clattering from your valve train while running. Was this the case?.
No clatter, and that's a good point.

If you have never done this before, it is real easy to not have the right "feel" for hitting zero lash. I've been doing it for 3+ decades as a mechanic, although only on my own stuff for the last 15 years, and I still double check the first couple to be sure my "feel" has been recalibrated :). I really suspect you have bottomed out your lifter plungers and would highly recommend re-running the whole procedure. Do this before chasing valvetrain geometry issues based on pics of ---possibly--- incorrectly adjusted valves.
I agree. I have to say though...........Even after putting everything back to where it was, the rockers are still very close to the retainers and might even make contact. I don't think this was ever correct from the get go. Like I said the builder knew I was in a tight spot after paying for a failed build by someone else. He tried to save everything he could from that failed buld, and it has worked all this time so obviously it can't be to bad. However, I'm thinking that for the cost of a new (correct) set of pushrods will give me some peace of mind and I'll know I have the clearance needed.
 
No clatter, but not sure I'd be able to hear that over open headers or not. .
Trust me, if they were all that loose, you WOULD hear it. I would often do small blocks while running. You'd be amazed at how little extra lash past zero it takes to make a hell of a racket----about 1/2 a flat of the adjuster. Multiply times 16 and you would definitely hear it. :)


I agree. I have to say though...........Even after putting everything back to where it was, the rockers are still very close to the retainers and might even make contact. I don't think this was ever correct from the get go. Like I said the builder knew I was in a tight spot after paying for a failed build by someone else. He tried to save everything he could from that failed buld, and it has worked all this time. However, I'm thinking that for the cost of a new (correct) set of pushrods will give me some peace of mind and I'll know I have the clearance needed.
Yeah, I seem to remember that whole episode from years ago......
 
Trust me, if they were all that loose, you WOULD hear it. I would often do small blocks while running. You'd be amazed at how little extra lash past zero it takes to make a hell of a racket----about 1/2 a flat of the adjuster. Multiply times 16 and you would definitely hear it. :)




Yeah, I seem to remember that whole episode from years ago......
So does my VISA:)st From what I remember you were my gaurdian angel finally. And that motors still running hard. :)devil
 
just taking a guess and sayin the cam isn't huge, if you do the midlift method , you're pushrods are gonna grow alottt:D


Looking at this picture it's hard to tell if the rocker arm stud is tight against the push-rod guide plate.It just look's like it's not tight.Something else to check.

Ok Dan it's time for a freshen-up of that motor since it's been 8 season's.just my .02 cent's.
 
+1 on pushrod length but that wont cause a overly rich condition. My suggestion is to get the valvetrain squared up then check needle and seat as well as fuel pressure. As far as trunnions being sloppy you might be into a longer set of studs especially if you get longer pushrods. The slop your feeling might be caused be the trunnion contacting the threaded area of the stud and not the smooth part. Oh and by the way you recessing your transom plate around the cleanout was a great idea!
 
Looking at this picture it's hard to tell if the rocker arm stud is tight against the push-rod guide plate.It just look's like it's not tight.Something else to check.

Ok Dan it's time for a freshen-up of that motor since it's been 8 season's.just my .02 cent's.
8 seasons the way you run that Ferd??? Dam Dan:)devil Way to go buddy. It may be time. With the Nitrous and your straight ankle right foot. You got your monies worth...
 
From the looks of the tops of your retainers, The rockers have been making contact....ever so slightly.

Order the pushrod checker from Comp.....set it and send it back and they will make you a set.

Also.....The bottom of you rockers are awfully close to the nut on the stud.
 
O.k. as a prelude I'll say I'm no motor guy. I have managed to keep
my BBF running all this time, but probably just because It's been oil
and spark plug changes primarily.

Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago. It took a while for the readings to come up, but again......
the motor hadn't been started and was cold.

Pulled the oil filter and cut it open and found no metal in the pleats.
Just a few little pieces of silicone from the valve covers. No metal at
all. I had just changed oil and filter and only run it twice since then.

I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and I know there's going to be a little play,
but it seemed excessive. Again no motorhead by any means, but I can
follow instructions (I think) and went about adjusting the valves.

Possibly first mistake I did it cold. Here's the method used.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment


Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash.

Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn. Bump the motor until the Intake is
almost down. Exhaust is now on base circle. Loosen the exhaust lock
nut. WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl exhaust
pushrod between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) , etc... Tighten
locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.

They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash. Although I thought
this seemed like an awful lot, I kept going until I had them all done.
I used the 1/2 turn after zero lash as opposed to the 3/4.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

I might've screwed up the adjustment, but I don't think so. Photos are
below. Any ideas what might cause this, or am I just a dumbass? All
the polylocks ended up being the same depth within the adjuster nuts
so it's not like I screwed up a cylinder. If I did something wrong, I did
em all wrong, but once again I don't think that's the case.

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the
lifters were all pumped up?

The only thing I could figure out is that the lifters had bled off and it
screwed up my adjustments. However I could feel the lifters compress
and the plungers give way when going through and adjusting them.

If I did F it up, how would I get back to square one so I can give it another
go?

Contact

Contact

Poly locks all match

Oil filter pleats
I am seiously suprised that a few of valve train gurus have not chimed in on this. Your'e problem stems from push-rod length and I will be surprised if the cam is not going flat! no offense but I raced fords for years and know the issues they have. Especially when you bolt on after-market heads!!! M
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
I am seiously suprised that a few of valve train gurus have not chimed in on this. Your'e problem stems from push-rod length and I will be surprised if the cam is not going flat! no offense but I raced fords for years and know the issues they have. Especially when you bolt on after-market heads!!! M
Don't you think it would've gone flat a long time ago if that were the case? The motor is almost 8 years old and it's been running this way the whole time.
 
Don't you think it would've gone flat a long time ago if that were the case? The motor is almost 8 years old and it's been running this way the whole time.
Only commenting on that question.

In the last couple of years the ZDDP package has been eliminated from almost all motor oils. It is possbile that the cam survived the first 6 seasons with no issues and started taking a dump the last two because of in adaquate oil additives.

If I was going to get into the engine that far I'd bring out the dial indicator and see if the cam meets or is anywhere near it's spec card.
 
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