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What could cause this?

5K views 50 replies 24 participants last post by  Squirtcha? 
#1 · (Edited)
O.k. as a prelude I'll say I'm no motor guy. I have managed to keep
my BBF running all this time, but probably just because It's been oil
and spark plug changes primarily.

Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago. It took a while for the readings to come up, but again......
the motor hadn't been started and was cold.

Pulled the oil filter and cut it open and found no metal in the pleats.
Just a few little pieces of silicone from the valve covers. No metal at
all. I had just changed oil and filter and only run it twice since then.

I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and I know there's going to be a little play,
but it seemed excessive. Again no motorhead by any means, but I can
follow instructions (I think) and went about adjusting the valves.

Possibly first mistake I did it cold. Here's the method used.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment


Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash.

Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn. Bump the motor until the Intake is
almost down. Exhaust is now on base circle. Loosen the exhaust lock
nut. WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl exhaust
pushrod between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) , etc... Tighten
locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.


They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash. Although I thought
this seemed like an awful lot, I kept going until I had them all done.
I used the 1/2 turn after zero lash as opposed to the 3/4.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

I might've screwed up the adjustment, but I don't think so. Photos are
below. Any ideas what might cause this, or am I just a dumbass? All
the polylocks ended up being the same depth within the adjuster nuts
so it's not like I screwed up a cylinder. If I did something wrong, I did
em all wrong, but once again I don't think that's the case.

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the
lifters were all pumped up?

The only thing I could figure out is that the lifters had bled off and it
screwed up my adjustments. However I could feel the lifters compress
and the plungers give way when going through and adjusting them.

If I did F it up, how would I get back to square one so I can give it another
go?

Contact

Contact

Poly locks all match

Oil filter pleats
 
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4
#5 ·
I am not a ford guy, but I dont think the valves were set correctly. I am assuming your camshaft is a hyd variety. I would start by loosening all of your rocker arms. I would get the engine on TDC number one compression stroke. Number one cylinder should have both vlaves closed. I would adjust them very gingerly untill the roller tip to valve stem contact is zero, then adjust a 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Turn the engine over by hand 1/4 turn, and follow the firing order untill complete. I think this is the most accurate way to adjust a hyd cam.

It does make it alot easier if you remove the spark plugs before doing this.

It sounds to me like you collapsed the lifter a little, I have never been a fan of the spinning of the pushrods.

Your miss could have just been a fouled spark plug, it does happen.
 
#6 ·
have those rockers been touching the retainers at all? it looks like they may have been kissing the tops of them. if they have then you may want to check the keepers to see if they have been moving around on the valves and showing signs of wear on the valve tips and keepers. looks to me like you need lash caps on them to give you the proper amount of clearance. my chevy did the same thing they were kissing the retainers and over time they worked the tips of the valves and then i started dropping valves. the tips of the valves would snap off. had to replace all the valves. make sure you have enough clearance between rocker and spring retainers. a set of lash caps is cheap.
 
#8 ·
There is a wear/polished pattern on the pushrods. see if you have gone beyond the normal pattern or not. You might have collapsed the lifters durring adjustment due to them slowly bleeding down after 2 weaks. Just an easy check. Personally I like to adjust hyd. when hot & running on a well broken in motor.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Thanks for the input. For some that might not know the history. The motor has run flawlessly for going on 8 seasons. I'm not the type of boater that takes it out a couple times per season either. I pretty much run it every weekend. It's got a lot of time on it and I've put lots of nitrous through it.

Here's the puzzling part to me. I know that the components are going to wear some over time, and even a flat tappet hydraulic setup might require an adjustment sometimes, but this seems excessive.

Doesn't seem likely that the lifters would all take a shit at the same time, nor that the cam would go after it's been run this long and pushrods don't shrink. That being the case where did all the slop come from.

In looking at the relationship between valve springs/keepers and rockers they must've been awfully close all this time. Yeah I adjusted them a bit and maybe not correctly due to my inexperience, but everything looks really close clearance/tolerance-wise.

I've backed everything off and will give it another go.
 
#16 ·
O.k. as a prelude I'll say I'm no motor guy. I have managed to keep
my BBF running all this time, but probably just because It's been oil
and spark plug changes primarily.

Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago. It took a while for the readings to come up, but again......
the motor hadn't been started and was cold.

Pulled the oil filter and cut it open and found no metal in the pleats.
Just a few little pieces of silicone from the valve covers. No metal at
all. I had just changed oil and filter and only run it twice since then.

I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and I know there's going to be a little play,
but it seemed excessive. Again no motorhead by any means, but I can
follow instructions (I think) and went about adjusting the valves.

Possibly first mistake I did it cold. Here's the method used.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment


Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash.

Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn. Bump the motor until the Intake is
almost down. Exhaust is now on base circle. Loosen the exhaust lock
nut. WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl exhaust
pushrod between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) , etc... Tighten
locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.

They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash. Although I thought
this seemed like an awful lot, I kept going until I had them all done.
I used the 1/2 turn after zero lash as opposed to the 3/4.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

I might've screwed up the adjustment, but I don't think so. Photos are
below. Any ideas what might cause this, or am I just a dumbass? All
the polylocks ended up being the same depth within the adjuster nuts
so it's not like I screwed up a cylinder. If I did something wrong, I did
em all wrong, but once again I don't think that's the case.

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the
lifters were all pumped up?

The only thing I could figure out is that the lifters had bled off and it
screwed up my adjustments. However I could feel the lifters compress
and the plungers give way when going through and adjusting them.

If I did F it up, how would I get back to square one so I can give it another
go?
I think you are overtightening the rockers by over a turn, if the lifter bottoms out, there is no hydraulic action left. The rockers should be tightened 1/2 to 3/4 turns after spring slack is felt..

Could be wrong but the contact you're experiencing is do to overtightened rockers (will act just like too short of pushrods).

I always use an oil pump primer to adjust valves on a hydro cam....Same process as you stated, but with 50# of oil pressure.

You took out all hydraulic action on the red/blue steps...

GT :)hand
 
#17 ·
I always use an oil pump primer to adjust valves on a hydro cam....Same process as you stated, but with 50# of oil pressure.
GT :)hand
Please elaborate. You prime one time before starting the adjustments? Or do you prime before doing each set of valves? How exactly to you make sure the lifters are completely pumped up and haven't bled down F ing up the deal?

Thanks
 
#19 ·
What length are your pushrods? I ran into the same thing when I built my BBF...had to get longer pushrods.

When I converted my OEM heads from pedestal rockers to screw in studs I used Comp Cams pushrod checker to get the right measurement so I could order the correct lenght pushrod.

just go ahead and build that stroker motor Dan.....you know you want to!:)devil
 
#20 ·
What length are your pushrods? I ran into the same thing when I built my BBF...had to get longer pushrods.

When I converted my OEM heads from pedestal rockers to screw in studs I used Comp Cams pushrod checker to get the right measurement so I could order the correct lenght pushrod.

just go ahead and build that stroker motor Dan.....you know you want to!:)devil
Yeah, but seven or eight seasons? That would just be weird IMO..

GT :)hand
 
#23 · (Edited)
Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago.
At this point, if it were my engine I'd think that the longblock is just fine and simply needs new spark plugs.
I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and...it seemed excessive.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment

Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash. Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.


They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash.
First of all, do not confuse bottoming the lifter plungers with having zero lash. At zero lash, the lifter plungers have not yet been forced/recessed into the lifter body. Once they begin moving into the lifter body, you are beyond zero lash. I realize that this is very elementary but sometimes a lifter plunger is weak and the drag observed while twirling the pushrod is not interpreted for what it is. The lifter plunger should be preloaded only 0.020"-0.030" beyond zero lash. Once zero lash is achieved, I rarely go past 1/4-turn with my roller rocker adjusters to get that 0.020"-0.030" of lifter preload.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

It could also simply be that the hydraulic lifters have bled down and thereby lowered the rockers down against the retainter....not that I like what I see and frankly I question proper valve train geometry because if it. Just out of curiosity, what is your valve spring installed height and what are the lengths of your pushrods?

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the lifters were all pumped up?
This is absolutely unnecessary if you can discern when zero lash is achieved and then depress the plunger that initial 0.020"-0.030" into the lifter body.

In regards to dropping a cylinder, I do not yet see anything out of the ordinary, other than needing spark plugs. If the culprit of the faltering cylinder is something else, you haven't found it yet and given the cylinder pressure I think your longblock is fine...but if your lifters are fully pumped up and you still have rocker arm contact against the retainers, you have something else to address regardless of whether it's playing a part in your engine concerns or not.

LO
 
#25 ·
just taking a guess and sayin the cam isn't huge, if you do the midlift method , you're pushrods are gonna grow alottt:D

Don't you mean " Grow Alotta"? LOL, sorry, it was sitting right there and I couldn't help myself...:D Tried to stop, but it was no use.;)

GT :)hand
 
#26 ·
Dan, im not sure about fords, but with a chevy when you install edelbrock heads, you also need to install longer pushrods as the valves are longer than stock valves from a factory head. you may be experiencing the same issue. if the edelbrock heads for the ford come with longer valve stem length than stock, you may be running stock length pushrods salvaged from the other build. this will certainly cause the issues you describe and show in the pics.
 
#28 ·
Dan, before you started the valve adjustment process, did you make a mental note of the lockscrew position in the adjuster? How do they look compared to where you started?

You said the valves were so loose they took more than a turn to get to zero lash. If that was the case you would have been able to rock the rocker arm back and forth with absolutely no effort. You also would have heard an almighty clattering from your valve train while running. Was this the case? If you have never done this before, it is real easy to not have the right "feel" for hitting zero lash. I've been doing it for 3+ decades as a mechanic, although only on my own stuff for the last 15 years, and I still double check the first couple to be sure my "feel" has been recalibrated :). I really suspect you have bottomed out your lifter plungers and would highly recommend re-running the whole procedure. Do this before chasing valvetrain geometry issues based on pics of ---possibly--- incorrectly adjusted valves.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Dan, before you started the valve adjustment process, did you make a mental note of the lockscrew position in the adjuster? How do they look compared to where you started?.
Yes, and I've put them all back where they were originally.

You said the valves were so loose they took more than a turn to get to zero lash. If that was the case you would have been able to rock the rocker arm back and forth with absolutely no effort. You also would have heard an almighty clattering from your valve train while running. Was this the case?.
No clatter, and that's a good point.

If you have never done this before, it is real easy to not have the right "feel" for hitting zero lash. I've been doing it for 3+ decades as a mechanic, although only on my own stuff for the last 15 years, and I still double check the first couple to be sure my "feel" has been recalibrated :). I really suspect you have bottomed out your lifter plungers and would highly recommend re-running the whole procedure. Do this before chasing valvetrain geometry issues based on pics of ---possibly--- incorrectly adjusted valves.
I agree. I have to say though...........Even after putting everything back to where it was, the rockers are still very close to the retainers and might even make contact. I don't think this was ever correct from the get go. Like I said the builder knew I was in a tight spot after paying for a failed build by someone else. He tried to save everything he could from that failed buld, and it has worked all this time so obviously it can't be to bad. However, I'm thinking that for the cost of a new (correct) set of pushrods will give me some peace of mind and I'll know I have the clearance needed.
 
#29 ·
:) I agree

The valve train worked before just fine, correct. You may have needed a slight adjustment to get it running back to where you were used to, but reading through what was done sounds like what Oldsquirt is saying, you've bottomed out the plunger and the rockers are hitting the retainers because they are down way to far on the rocker studs.

I remember adjusting hyd lifters back in the day with the motor running, back'em off till they click then 1/4-1/2 turn, good to go. Did get a little sokey and messy though:)sphss

This coming from a guy that ate 3 motors in 4 months:D
 
#34 ·
+1 on pushrod length but that wont cause a overly rich condition. My suggestion is to get the valvetrain squared up then check needle and seat as well as fuel pressure. As far as trunnions being sloppy you might be into a longer set of studs especially if you get longer pushrods. The slop your feeling might be caused be the trunnion contacting the threaded area of the stud and not the smooth part. Oh and by the way you recessing your transom plate around the cleanout was a great idea!
 
#38 ·
O.k. as a prelude I'll say I'm no motor guy. I have managed to keep
my BBF running all this time, but probably just because It's been oil
and spark plug changes primarily.

Last time at the river I made a pass probably just 1/8 mile at WOT.
I could tell something wasn't right and it sounded like it was running
on 7 cylinders. No back firing or anything, but definitely not hitting on
all 8. Managed to limp it back to the trailer and didn't touch it again
till I got it home. Pulled the plugs and all 8 are black and fuel fouled.
Even after 3 days of sitting you could still smell fuel on them real strong.

I pulled a cold compression check and all cylinders came back at 165
psi which is about what they've been since the motor was built 7+
years ago. It took a while for the readings to come up, but again......
the motor hadn't been started and was cold.

Pulled the oil filter and cut it open and found no metal in the pleats.
Just a few little pieces of silicone from the valve covers. No metal at
all. I had just changed oil and filter and only run it twice since then.

I pulled the rocker covers and checked the play on all the rockers. It's
a flat tappet hydraulic cam and I know there's going to be a little play,
but it seemed excessive. Again no motorhead by any means, but I can
follow instructions (I think) and went about adjusting the valves.

Possibly first mistake I did it cold. Here's the method used.

Hydraulic Valve Adjustment


Pick a cylinder.
Bump the motor until the Exhaust valve starts up. Intake is now on
base circle. Loosen the intake lock nut.

WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl intake pushrod
between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) and tighten the lock nut
until you feel the pushrod stop turning. This is zero lash.

Tighten locknut 1/2~3/4 turn. Bump the motor until the Intake is
almost down. Exhaust is now on base circle. Loosen the exhaust lock
nut. WAIT a minute or so, to let the plunger relax. Twirl exhaust
pushrod between thumb and forefinger (hold gently) , etc... Tighten
locknut 1/2~3/4 turn.

They were so loose that I found myself having to put a full turn 360
degrees on the adjuster nuts before I hit zero lash. Although I thought
this seemed like an awful lot, I kept going until I had them all done.
I used the 1/2 turn after zero lash as opposed to the 3/4.

After finishing I noticed that the valve spring retainers were making
physical contact with the rocker arms. (Don't worry I wasn't stupid
enough to start it like that). Obviously something is F'd up here.

I might've screwed up the adjustment, but I don't think so. Photos are
below. Any ideas what might cause this, or am I just a dumbass? All
the polylocks ended up being the same depth within the adjuster nuts
so it's not like I screwed up a cylinder. If I did something wrong, I did
em all wrong, but once again I don't think that's the case.

Should I have started it prior to making the adjustments so ensure the
lifters were all pumped up?

The only thing I could figure out is that the lifters had bled off and it
screwed up my adjustments. However I could feel the lifters compress
and the plungers give way when going through and adjusting them.

If I did F it up, how would I get back to square one so I can give it another
go?

Contact

Contact

Poly locks all match

Oil filter pleats
I am seiously suprised that a few of valve train gurus have not chimed in on this. Your'e problem stems from push-rod length and I will be surprised if the cam is not going flat! no offense but I raced fords for years and know the issues they have. Especially when you bolt on after-market heads!!! M
 
#42 ·
Wouldn't that make the problem worse?
Lash caps would make the valve stems even taller accentuating the short fall of the pushrods.
I still say the lifters are collapsed and the longer lenth pushrods will correct the valvetrain geometry issue and if I'm thinking about it right, increase valve lift at the same time (ratios right now are compromised)..

GT :)hand
 
#44 ·
True, it would offer a bit more clearance, but look at the geometry as a whole, I'm thinking 3/16" to 1/4" more pushrod would put it back in the park and take full advantage of the duration and lift of the cam.

Not to mention any more valve height would really screw with the pushrod to rocker angle (look at it now), that thing is begging to be spit out like a radish eaten by a toddler...Just another ******** opinion though.;)

GT :)hand
 
#48 ·
Squirtcha?

I am on the other side of town from you but have the time to come help if you need a hand. Done a few cam installs and hydraulic lifter adjustments in my time. I would bet the original problem is fuel related. Send me a PM with contact info if you need a second pair of eyes to look at it.
 
#49 ·
Dan, do you run a dry or wet NOS system? And when it started missing were you on the juice or had made a juice run! This could be your problem! If it is a wet system it could be fuel sol. is stuck and causing flooding! Or if your bottle ran dry no NOS and all fuel!
I have been around Fords and flat lobing a cam is not very common with them! Just food for thought! WT:)devil
 
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