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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well last time out no start with the boat. Put my tail between my legs, loaded boat back up. Checked off to the side of launch and found Ign. fuse blown. Replaced, blows as soon as I try to start. No fuel pump, no nothin. Replace fuse, remove small wire from start solenoid, fuel pump runs dont blow fuse. Ok. bad solenoid. Order new, replaced today, guess what, same thing. Removed new solenoid, go to my battery directly drawing 16 amps. Maybe wiring wrong? Took one leg to ground with mounting screw and went hot to spade. What the hell is going on? Any ideas?
 

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Just Me
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Take the starter down to Autozone or any autoparts store and have them test it. Also you might check and make sure it doesn't have a Ford type solenoid up the wire from the one on the starter. In fact, trace the hot lead back to the battery and make sure it didn't melt onto something creating a dead short.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Take the starter down to Autozone or any autoparts store and have them test it. Also you might check and make sure it doesn't have a Ford type solenoid up the wire from the one on the starter. In fact, trace the hot lead back to the battery and make sure it didn't melt onto something creating a dead short.
That might be the next thing we do. Think 15 amp fuse too small? Worked all summer till the other day. I jump starter and spins like mad. Jump solenoid, pops out drawing 16 amps. Also no other start relay.
 

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Dewey where is this fuse located ? and in the buss panel at the back of your engine (if one?) is there a circuit breaker ? also what color on either side of the fuse holder ?
 

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Couple things you need to know about that starter solenoid. There are two separate electromagnet coils inside. One is called the "pull-in" coil and the other is the "hold-in" coil. The pull-in coil is very strong and has high current flow. The hold-in is much weaker and is fairly low current. The hold-in coil grounds through the solenoid body. The pull-in grounds through the starter windings by way of the lower lug on solenoid and the cable leading into the starter's motor. This may sound odd, but it effectively turns off the pull-in coil as soon as the contact disc in the solenoid connects the battery lug to the motor lug on solenoid. This is intentional as it leaves just the low current hold-in windings "on", and much lower current draw. The pull-in coil is "off" by the time you hear the "click" from the solenoid.

If you tested the solenoid as pictured, with the motor lead disconnected, you only measured "hold-in" current. To measure total draw of the pull-in circuit, reconnect that wire(still with nothing connected to top solenoid terminal) and retest. Subtract hold-in current from that number. I bet you see a much higher draw. Another simple test would be to connect that motor lead direct to B+ and ground the case. Does the starter operate at a very high speed(normal) or at a reduced speed(sign of problem in the motor assembly).


Did you try cranking with the fuel pump disconnected? Perhaps its the total of the two that is the problem and the fuel pump(or anything else on that fuse) is the item drawing too much at this time. That 15 amp fuse surprises me. More likely to see a 25 or 30 and that would be on a boat without an electric pump. Is pump run through a relay or directly from ignition switch?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dewey where is this fuse located ? and in the buss panel at the back of your engine (if one?) is there a circuit breaker ? also what color on either side of the fuse holder ?
Its under the dash. 15 amp. Just got back in. Removed the starter again:|err.

Couple things you need to know about that starter solenoid. There are two separate electromagnet coils inside. One is called the "pull-in" coil and the other is the "hold-in" coil. The pull-in coil is very strong and has high current flow. The hold-in is much weaker and is fairly low current. The hold-in coil grounds through the solenoid body. The pull-in grounds through the starter windings by way of the lower lug on solenoid and the cable leading into the starter's motor. This may sound odd, but it effectively turns off the pull-in coil as soon as the contact disc in the solenoid connects the battery lug to the motor lug on solenoid. This is intentional as it leaves just the low current hold-in windings "on", and much lower current draw. The pull-in coil is "off" by the time you hear the "click" from the solenoid.

If you tested the solenoid as pictured, with the motor lead disconnected, you only measured "hold-in" current. To measure total draw of the pull-in circuit, reconnect that wire(still with nothing connected to top solenoid terminal) and retest. Subtract hold-in current from that number. I bet you see a much higher draw. Another simple test would be to connect that motor lead direct to B+ and ground the case. Does the starter operate at a very high speed(normal) or at a reduced speed(sign of problem in the motor assembly).


Did you try cranking with the fuel pump disconnected? Perhaps its the total of the two that is the problem and the fuel pump(or anything else on that fuse) is the item drawing too much at this time. That 15 amp fuse surprises me. More likely to see a 25 or 30 and that would be on a boat without an electric pump. Is pump run through a relay or directly from ignition switch?
Thanks for the heads up on the starter circuits. I guess I never paid much attention to the functions. I ran a hot directly to the starter and spins like crazy. Also I guess from what you described, my testing of the solenoid was basicly testing "pull in". Explains high amps. 17-22 amps and thats whats blowing the fuse. Well off to auto store for more testing. Really sucks for my son, its my weekend and suppose to low 80's tomorrow. He loves the Taylor, wants nothing to do with the flatty. Maybe I can talk him into a short ride. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know what I find about the starter later.
 

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Dewey I'm not sure why they would have had the starter "excite" (solenoid) circuit fused anyway ?? The vast majority of these boats were ,in my experience rigged with no fuses and generally a "main feed" resetable circuit breaker at the Power distribution block at the back of the engine . Love to see you and the youngin get some seat time call my cell (check PMs) I'll try to help Tom
 

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Its under the dash. 15 amp. Just got back in. Removed the starter again:|err.

Thanks for the heads up on the starter circuits. I guess I never paid much attention to the functions. I ran a hot directly to the starter and spins like crazy. Also I guess from what you described, my testing of the solenoid was basicly testing "pull in". Explains high amps. 17-22 amps and thats whats blowing the fuse. Well off to auto store for more testing. Really sucks for my son, its my weekend and suppose to low 80's tomorrow. He loves the Taylor, wants nothing to do with the flatty. Maybe I can talk him into a short ride. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know what I find about the starter later.
what does this mean, starter spins like crazy??? if the starter spins like crazy, that's not the problem. if it worked before with the 15 amp fuse, what else changed??? have you done anything at all to the boat since the last time it ran? engine locked up? pump bound up? dead short somewhere south of the keyswitch? i've seen wood screws work their way through wire insulation creating a dead short, nothing is impossible.
 

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Its under the dash. 15 amp. Just got back in. Removed the starter again:|err.

Thanks for the heads up on the starter circuits. I guess I never paid much attention to the functions. I ran a hot directly to the starter and spins like crazy. Also I guess from what you described, my testing of the solenoid was basicly testing "pull in". Explains high amps. 17-22 amps and thats whats blowing the fuse. Well off to auto store for more testing. Really sucks for my son, its my weekend and suppose to low 80's tomorrow. He loves the Taylor, wants nothing to do with the flatty. Maybe I can talk him into a short ride. Thanks again guys. I'll let you know what I find about the starter later.

No, you tested the "hold-in" and that amount of current is in the ballpark. I have routinely tested starter solenoids with higher draw than that.

You need to look at EVERYTHING else on the circuit protected by that fuse. It may be that when you try to crank the engine, that additional current flow is the so-called "straw that breaks the camels back". The starter may be just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
No, you tested the "hold-in" and that amount of current is in the ballpark. I have routinely tested starter solenoids with higher draw than that.

You need to look at EVERYTHING else on the circuit protected by that fuse. It may be that when you try to crank the engine, that additional current flow is the so-called "straw that breaks the camels back". The starter may be just fine.
I guess I'll wait for the results from starter testing than go from there. Thanks guys

what does this mean, starter spins like crazy??? if the starter spins like crazy, that's not the problem. if it worked before with the 15 amp fuse, what else changed??? have you done anything at all to the boat since the last time it ran? engine locked up? pump bound up? dead short somewhere south of the keyswitch? i've seen wood screws work their way through wire insulation creating a dead short, nothing is impossible.
I ran a wire to the starter and it ran (spins) fairly easy.
 

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So let me understand this. There is a wire from the large post on the solenoid going directly to the battery isn't there? And the fused wire goes from the fuse, through the key switch and back to the S terminal on the solenoid? If this is the case then you need to double check your lead cable going from the battery to the starter. It isn't making a good solid connection and the solenoid is drawing too many amps through the s terminal. Another way to check it is to jump the large post to the S terminal on the solenoid and it should engage the starter bypassing the fuse. If the large wire going to the large terminal is fused, it shouldn't be. One last point. You changed out the solenoid so make sure the plunger and engagement fork on the starter are moving freely and the gears are moving in and out as power is applied to that S terminal. (this can be checked by jumping from the battery to the s terminal with the large battery terminal disconnected) Finally, improper shimming could cause a bind which would limit the engagement, increase the amp draw, and prevent starting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So let me understand this. There is a wire from the large post on the solenoid going directly to the battery isn't there? And the fused wire goes from the fuse, through the key switch and back to the S terminal on the solenoid? If this is the case then you need to double check your lead cable going from the battery to the starter. It isn't making a good solid connection and the solenoid is drawing too many amps through the s terminal. Another way to check it is to jump the large post to the S terminal on the solenoid and it should engage the starter bypassing the fuse. If the large wire going to the large terminal is fused, it shouldn't be. One last point. You changed out the solenoid so make sure the plunger and engagement fork on the starter are moving freely and the gears are moving in and out as power is applied to that S terminal. (this can be checked by jumping from the battery to the s terminal with the large battery terminal disconnected) Finally, improper shimming could cause a bind which would limit the engagement, increase the amp draw, and prevent starting.
Yes there is a direct feed to the starter post from the battery. Two wires I believe actually. The starter motor goes to the other post, then a small wire to a spade on the solenoid. Thats it. Removed starter, took to a garage, they are going to test it. Took it in late, never heard back from them. Boat started all summer long till last time out. Going to call them (garage) Monday morn. see what they found out about the starter. Their english sucked, wish me luck. Cant find anything around here that's all american operated.
 

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So let me understand this. There is a wire from the large post on the solenoid going directly to the battery isn't there? And the fused wire goes from the fuse, through the key switch and back to the S terminal on the solenoid? If this is the case then you need to double check your lead cable going from the battery to the starter. It isn't making a good solid connection and the solenoid is drawing too many amps through the s terminal.
the way i'm reading this, there is nothing wrong with the battery/starter cable or cable connection. if i'm understanding this correctly, he took a jumper wire, connected from either the battery or the main solonoid post to the s terminal, and the starter "spun like crazy". if that's the case, turning the key is not providing sufficient amperage to fully engage the starter, consequently drawing excessive amps through the s terminal for a long enough period to blow the fuse.

i had a similar problem 25 years ago when a starter was a bit worn. once warmed up, turning the key would do nothing. taking a wire and jumping between the s terminal and the main post would spin the starter and start the thing. but, i didn't have any fuses to replace in the start circuit, and rebuilding the starter cured the problem. a relay might help alleviate this.
 

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I talked to Dewey for a while yesterday , unfortunately it sound like the prior owner "rewired" this boat with non standard color coding along with some of his own "innovations" once he gets the starter back and circumvents the current existing starter circuit I think he'll be on the right track Tom

Dewey heres a very basic (color correct) diagram originally someone posted here a long time back
 

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the way i'm reading this, there is nothing wrong with the battery/starter cable or cable connection. if i'm understanding this correctly, he took a jumper wire, connected from either the battery or the main solonoid post to the s terminal, and the starter "spun like crazy". if that's the case, turning the key is not providing sufficient amperage to fully engage the starter, consequently drawing excessive amps through the s terminal for a long enough period to blow the fuse. .

Bob this would fly directly in the face of Ohm's law. Bottom line, with a fixed voltage applied(that is, one that can't increase)if resistance increases, current decreases. There is no "trying harder and increasing current".


i had a similar problem 25 years ago when a starter was a bit worn. once warmed up, turning the key would do nothing. taking a wire and jumping between the s terminal and the main post would spin the starter and start the thing. but, i didn't have any fuses to replace in the start circuit, and rebuilding the starter cured the problem. a relay might help alleviate this.
Likely a case of several things deteriorating and fixing one(the starter) was enough to get the system working again. A relay would definitely help if the problem is excessive voltage drop from battery, through ignition switch and then on to the starter "S" terminal.
 

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Dewey heres a very basic (color correct) diagram originally someone posted here a long time back
Tom, until the indivdual who created that diagram corrects some issues with his "aux solenoid", which should be called a "starter relay", it probably isn't such a great idea to post it. We know that the most commonly used "slave" to a solenoid-equipped starter is the Ford V-8 starter relay. It would not be wired as shown. Without identifying that "aux solenoid" by brand and model, it --could-- lead to problems. Even with an ID, the way it is wired is the equivalent of using a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail. A very simple relay could do the same job, as evidenced by millions and millions of vehicles on the road today.
 

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Bob this would fly directly in the face of Ohm's law. Bottom line, with a fixed voltage applied(that is, one that can't increase)if resistance increases, current decreases. There is no "trying harder and increasing current".
craig, why would resistance increase??? it is more likely, that when significant current draw exists, voltage decreases, because resistance remains the same. and because voltage decreases through the same resistance, current draw rises. of course, i'm old and have crs, but from what i've seen, battery voltage fluctuates depending on current draw - especially with no charger attached or alternator providing charging current. happens to me all the time - i could show you examples in my data.
 

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craig, why would resistance increase??? it is more likely, that when significant current draw exists, voltage decreases, because resistance remains the same. and because voltage decreases through the same resistance, current draw rises. of course, i'm old and have crs, but from what i've seen, battery voltage fluctuates depending on current draw - especially with no charger attached or alternator providing charging current. happens to me all the time - i could show you examples in my data.
The answer is heat. As amperage flows through a wire it creates heat. Heat increases resistance which increases amperage draw which increases heat and around and around it goes till the draw is reduced or the wire smokes. Battery voltage fluctuates based on stored charge left in the battery. If it is sending out a lot of amperage the voltage will read lower. If the voltage stops flowing out then a steady state charge can be read in the battery's voltage. The steady state charge is not a 100% indicator of a good or bad battery.
 

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Tom, until the indivdual who created that diagram corrects some issues with his "aux solenoid", which should be called a "starter relay", it probably isn't such a great idea to post it. We know that the most commonly used "slave" to a solenoid-equipped starter is the Ford V-8 starter relay. It would not be wired as shown. Without identifying that "aux solenoid" by brand and model, it --could-- lead to problems. Even with an ID, the way it is wired is the equivalent of using a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail. A very simple relay could do the same job, as evidenced by millions and millions of vehicles on the road today.
i thought i still had the box for the relay i replaced, but can't find it - it's still around somewhere - don't know what make/model/brand. mine only has 3 wires. starter solonoid main post has battery cable and alt wire. one 10gauge hot wire from the post to left side of relay, 10 gauge out the other side to the s terminal. ignition wire to the small left terminal operates the relay. whole combination is less than 1' from the battery...
 

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craig, why would resistance increase??? it is more likely, that when significant current draw exists, voltage decreases, because resistance remains the same. and because voltage decreases through the same resistance, current draw rises. of course, i'm old and have crs, but from what i've seen, battery voltage fluctuates depending on current draw - especially with no charger attached or alternator providing charging current. happens to me all the time - i could show you examples in my data.
Bob, I stated that in the opposite of what I intended. The point I was trying to make was that for a given input voltage, the only way for current to increase (and thus blow a fuse) would be for resistance to drop. But in this case , resistance is fixed but can increase as the solenoid's coil gets hot if the starter is held on too long. This will cause a current drop. So, too will the voltage drop that occurs while cranking. Bottom line, in operation, the current flowing through this circuit will not increase in the fashion you stated(and I highlighted) as a result of extended cranking. If the circuit has insufficient current flow to operate a device(in this case the starter solenoid) there is nothing that is going to cause an increase in current flow through the "S" terminal, short of boosting voltage applied or a "spontaneous" drop in circuit resistance. THAT is the terminal in the circuit that had insufficient current flowing through it in the first place.

Trust me I'm well aware of how voltage changes due to electrical load and charging system operation. You do remember what I do for a living, don't you? :)
 
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