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Leave, rebuild or strip and crush it?

  1. #43
    Senior Member f_inscreenname's Avatar
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    I have a wall of props. At the moment itís running a 2 blade chopper.
    Iíve been fooling with it off and on the last few weeks. Had a steering issues to fix. Had to put cutlass bearings in it. Then it seemed like every time I took it out for a test drive there was another issue. The old two steps forward one step back thing. All the while learning to drive it cause itís nothing like Iíve ever driven before. Sadly there isnít much time left to do much else. As wet as you get itís a summer time thing around here. Totally have it in mind to do something next spring to change the front sponsons. Just havenít figured out what and how.
    A winner is just a loser that got up and did it one more time.
    1959 Biesemeyer - 4pt Hydro Drag - 2013 ACBS Winner - Best Race Boat
    1966 Donzi 16
    1967 Nova Marine - SuperNova24 - ACBS Winner - 2012 Best Race Boat - 2016 Peoples Choice & Best Non Wood
    1972 John Allmand - Nova 19
    1982 PolarKraft -Jonboat - Crab Killer

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  3. #44
    Precision Craft Marine
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    This boat is a piece of history. I would love to have it. The ride and performance of any boat can be changed with hardware and weight placement. Like Mike fry has stated, The wide, flat sponson is not ideal for lift. The magic # is 2 degrees on the sponson angle. The other issue on these early hydro's is the strut angle and the strut depth. With that said, if you take angle out of the strut and take depth out of the strut, the tail is going to hike way up and free up the boat. The fact that the boat has a tunnel above the prop throws a curve at things. If that boat were mine, I would build a strut with 7 degrees of angle, set the depth at 6.25" to the center of the tip of the prop shaft, the v-drive will then move way forward, which will allow you to move the engine forward. Center up the weight as much as possible in the boat, and go fast and safe. Its a shit load of work to do, but well worth it, if you decide to keep it and run it.

  4. #45
    Senior Member Old School's Avatar
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    Been watching this thread for awhile now, and see alot of talk about the 4 point being unsafe as to the 3 point. your saying that you believe the tunnel is the problem because it has the two wetted surface's at transom, as Joe said you need to get the tail up, which as he said will require some work, new strut, v-drive forward, and such but......don't think because it has a tunnel at transom that is the issue. Sanger Jack made a tunneled hydro that ran very fast, and they still do to this day....This is my old 19' Sanger, it now belongs to a friend ,Moe up in Canada and is running a Blown Fuel 426 Chysler in it, yes he run's fuel in his play toy...




    ​Is not a great picture but if you look close just outside the aluminum rudder bracket on the left side. you'll see the tunnel.
    Speed cost money...how fast did you say you wanted to go
    1970 RaysonCraft LP SE-54


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  6. #46
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    Default prop

    You got any extra 2 blade left hand props.JOHN SR

  7. #47
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    Been watching this thread a while too........don't post much since my projects aren't done.

    BUT, I certainly be interested in dropping a retro driveline in that hull if it came up for sale and I had the garage space.

  8. #48
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    Default Technical Explanation of this Design

    I have some experience with this problem because I built a similar boat in the '70's. Mine had a 5/8" tunnel in an attempt to be a legal flat bottom. The problem is not air entrapment or prop issues. The problem is the front sponsons being nearly flat have a lot of area in contact with the water. This relatively large area creates a lot of hydrodynamic drag from each sponson. The problem is this drag is produced by two opposing sponsons located far ahead of the CG of the boat. Each drag component (sponson) creates a rotational force opposite to the other. In a perfect world with absolutely flat water and perfect balance the drag produced by each front sponson would have the same 'hydrodynamic drag' in opposite directions which would cancel each other and not create a rotation around the CG (no bow steer). Since the world is not perfect, the drag created by each sponson is not the same and the side with the larger drag will pull the boat to that side. If this drag was located behind the CG the situation would create a self alligning condition (stable), whereas the asymmetrical drag ahead of the CG causes rotational forces which produces an unstable condition. Further, when one sponson digs in creating more drag, the opposite sponson is raised out of the water reducing its drag component and aggravating the balance of forces (makes things worse).
    In the case of a 3 point hydro the front sponsons have a sharp half 'V' leading to a knife edge at the lowest inboard point of each sponson. As this design gains speed it climbs out of the water on a cushion of air reducing the sponson area in contact with the water (reducing drag). Further, the area of the sponson in contact with the water moves inward as the boat rises off the water which reduces the moment arm around the CG reducing the bow steer effect. With nothing but a small knife edge in the water on each side the 3 pt can rock from side to side without creating a significant rotational drag imbalance. Anyone that has driven a 3pt hydro knows this effect.
    If you have followed me this far, then you have the option to change the front sponsons to a 'half V' design in an attempt to emulate the 3 pt design. In my case, I struggled with my boat until it did an 80 mph barrel roll putting me in the hospital and I abandoned the project since the geometrical fix was not practical.
    Shirl Dickey
    CJ60

  9. #49
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    Just watching the test video it looks nose heavy. I build billet v-drive stuff, but I'm not a set-up guy. But what if you decrease the prop angle, move the v-drive forward, and lift the nose more. In general, it looks like the v-drive itself needs to move forward whether it's a 8 or 10 degree. I think it's a cool boat. I think you should keep working with it. (easy for me to say)

  10. #50
    Senior Member f_inscreenname's Avatar
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    Sorry folks, have another project in the fire before it gets to cold out (it gets cold here in the winter unlike you all on the left coast) so I havenít been on this as much as I would like. Plus I had to make a couple repairs to the old girl which has also eaten up a lot of time.
    Just a review, I have moved the motor and about anything that can be moved back and forth trying to change things. When I had everything forward, including having the shortest driveshaft I could make the boat was the worst it ever was. Submarine-ing comes to mind. Itís at its best right now with everything moved back toward the stern. I would like to move even more to the back but if I do, when the boat is stopped there is a good chance it will sink by the stern. So now I need to go in another direction.
    As for changing the prop angle and such. Please donít think Iím blowing you off. Sounds like you all have some good ideas but itís not going to happen. Out of my skill set. Also itís at 10* now and the V Drive sits about an inch from the seat back. Anymore and the V drive would have to be under the front deck and thatís just a guess. Being the hull also slopes in the front who knows where it would end up.

    MrEracer, Iím gonna have to read your post again when I get home. Think I go it but just want to make sure.
    Just a FYI, I did some measurements on the front sponsons last night. The best I can tell there is a flat area about 22Ē wide X 22Ē long for the front to ride on. Also I was out with it the other day. Itís real close to being right. If I could just get it in the right wind or minor chop to get the bow up just slightly Ö.man it was on but it would fall off just as quick.
    A winner is just a loser that got up and did it one more time.
    1959 Biesemeyer - 4pt Hydro Drag - 2013 ACBS Winner - Best Race Boat
    1966 Donzi 16
    1967 Nova Marine - SuperNova24 - ACBS Winner - 2012 Best Race Boat - 2016 Peoples Choice & Best Non Wood
    1972 John Allmand - Nova 19
    1982 PolarKraft -Jonboat - Crab Killer

  11. #51
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    Have you tried a old 11 1/2 x 15 stellings prop with the big cupped ears like was used on the old flat bottoms.I have never played with a Beser but have tried taming a couple old Hydro-flites. hydroflights don't have the tunnel but they boats seem to like big cupped props. These boats were not designed to lift the tail, but instead to hold nose up like a flat bottom should.Thats why it likes weight in the back not in the front like a hydro.The tunnel is to unwet the boat and let trapped air out.It is more a hybred flat than a hydro. The sponsons aren't deep enough or angled right for tail lift with out creating bow steer. The sponsons are more like training wheels on a flat the can't carry the nose. They never really worked and that is why you don't see them. Over a 100mph and they can get scary real fast. Funny how A boat that won't turn for crap going slow will grab a sponsone and turn uncontrollably at high speeds.

  12. #52
    Cocoloco cocoloco's Avatar
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    Default Took a good look at one last week in Havasu.

    Quote Originally Posted by f_inscreenname View Post
    I have a wall of props. At the moment itís running a 2 blade chopper.
    Iíve been fooling with it off and on the last few weeks. Had a steering issues to fix. Had to put cutlass bearings in it. Then it seemed like every time I took it out for a test drive there was another issue. The old two steps forward one step back thing. All the while learning to drive it cause itís nothing like Iíve ever driven before. Sadly there isnít much time left to do much else. As wet as you get itís a summer time thing around here. Totally have it in mind to do something next spring to change the front sponsons. Just havenít figured out what and how.
    I passed on buying one of these last year in Parker AZ. It was up for $2,500 and it ran. The guy couldn't get any takers for months and finally sold it cheap. It had an old Y block Ford in it and ran about 40 MPH the guy said. At a boat show last week in Havasu my wife and I sat down to lunch at a street side cafe. I realized in about ten minutes I was sitting looking under a boat just like yours. But there was a difference. Where yours is flat on the sponsons, someone had done what MrEracer said. It had no flat area and came to a V under the sponson. I waited and waited to try and talk with the owner but he had evidently left it and taken off. You described the problem as a flying tail so I was thinking under the impression the tail needed to stay down. The drag forward of CG makes for a very unstable craft. Get the CG off in an airplane then try to fly it, bad idea. You can't move your CG but you can eliminate the drag friction on the sponsons. That is probably the fix and it won't change the appearance of the boat much. Shouldn't be very hard or costly either. It appears to me you are one heck of a boat rebuilder with great talent. Funny thing the boat I passed on in Parker was the same color and scheme as you painted yours. I say you have nothing to lose in looks or much in cost to try what MrEracer said. I heard the guy with the one I saw at lunch is local. There is another show coming in November. I will see if he is there and get his info. BTW that thing is straight wicked looking in the water brother. That would be a no sell for me. Now I wish I would have bought the one when I had a chance. Mark

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