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Wing or non-wing

  1. #85
    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Yeah, I understand wha you were saying, but is still rotational force. Even when the nuts tight. Your hand, and the end of the wrench are still following a arc, as is the nut around the spindle.

    A wing catilevered behind any vehicle has EXACTLY the same effect as the wing being attached straight down to two blanks extended from the rear of the vehicle. Because boats are on a medium that allows the rear to push into the medium, its effects are somewhat diiferent than a car. On a car the down force can use the rear axle as a pivot.(ah rotational force) Ever see what happens to a dragster when the front wing collapses. Thing they really need a front wing to plant the front tires if the rear wing didn't exist?
    In a boat it is somewhat similar, but not exactly the same. But it would act to raise the front of the boat more than if the same wing was mounted directly inside the boats hull, but no more than if the a larger wing were mounted inside the hull, applying an equivlent down force. The cantilevered wing just allows a smaller wing to do the same job as a larger wing mounted closer to the vehicle. And the smaller wing creates much less drag, and weighs less. Weight helps in the down force, but the weight still needs to be accelerated. As the speed increases the wings down force goes up, and the wings weight becomes more massive, but adds no more down force than it did at the starting line, setting static.
    Dragsters use to use weights on the front ends to help stop rotation on the start, but still had to accelerate the weight long after it was helping hold the front down. Now the drivers weight helps hold the front down, and the wing replaced the driver behind the rear axle. Now the rear down force increases with speed, which the driver never did, requirig a opposite down force on the front to counter the increased rear force.

    whew! Didn't want to get in the middle of this. But you did drag me in.
    Pretty much exactly what I said..... a brutha just can't get a break around here... I'm out, gotta get some work done....
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

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  3. #86
    gn7
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    First of all, the driver needs to get off the chicken lever.
    It would be my guess that the wing was never designed to creat huge amounts of down force to begin with. A wing that size could be designesd to fold those uprights like a cheap beach chair at the speeds your going. It would create alot drag at the same time. So with so little force designed into the wing, any with any negetive angle it becomes a parasail. Not wing creating lift. Just a sheet of alumn cought in the wind. If it could create any where near the lift form from one degree of negative angle, as it creates down force with one degree of positive angle, you would have gotten wet.
    Not suggesting you try it, but imagine the wing upside down with a proper DOWN FORCE setting. Then you would know what real lift is.

    Ever think that the wing went dead nuetral. Not saying it did. But if it went into a dead stall, the prop could have caused some of what you had occure



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    Last edited by gn7; 01-31-2011 at 12:55 PM.

  4. #87
    Speedy Member Jetboatguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    First of all, the driver needs to get off the chicken lever.
    It would be my guess that the wing was never designed to creat huge amounts of down force to begin with. A wing that size could be designesd to fold those uprights like a cheap beach chair at the speeds your going. It would create alot drag at the same time. So with so little force designed into the wing, any with any negetive angle it becomes a parasail. Not wing creating lift. Just a sheet of alumn cought in the wind. If it could create any where near the lift form from one degree of negative angle, as it creates down force with one degree of positive angle, you would have gotten wet.
    Not suggesting you try it, but imagine the wing upside down with a proper DOWN FORCE setting. Then you would know what real lift is.

    Ever think that the wing went dead nuetral. Not saying it did. But if it went into a dead stall, the prop could have caused some of what you had occure
    Bob, are you off your meds again?
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    get a life..... mowe some more lawns. pick up some cans, save your ol ladys welfare checks and get your teeth fixed.



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  6. #88
    gn7
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    Tony, you want down force? Hang a piece of plywood on the back at a 45* angle and never worry about it going to lift again, no matter how high the front of the boat gets It all in what the device was intended to perform. You want a wing that won't go to lift on you, I will built you one. Of course you can't complain if you set it dead level and it shoves the ass of the boat under water at 150. But I guarantee, you'll never see lift from being 1* off.



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  7. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    Pretty much exactly what I said..... a brutha just can't get a break around here... I'm out, gotta get some work done....
    I agree, pretty much the same thing. But I think we are both about to be schooled by shan!




    Quote Originally Posted by shan View Post
    Wow, where do I start. Nevermind...
    I am all ears. Go ahead.



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    Last edited by gn7; 01-31-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboatguru View Post
    Todd,

    It doesn't matter if you have it laid back or not it still pushes down force where it is connected to the boat. The problem with laying it back is that you typically run longer uprights. The longer uprights have a tendency to flex. You lose rigidity and all that flexing creates rocking side to side.
    I played with this on a freinds aero simulator.
    David 519 is 100% correct.
    Once your can't the wing, you can induce rotational force to the hull, and it is almost impossible to do with the wing over the boat. Depending on how you imput data for the water, which I found impossible to do. But with the boat on flat ground, the up rights would collapse before you could raise the nose if the wing is directly over the boat. Not so with it cantilevered. It would rotate, and pretty easily if the wing was far enough back.

    Tony, you comment on the struts on a cantilevered deal is right in line with everything Garlits screamed for years. He still to this day says Russel's death was a result of the wing struts. The official word was a tire failure. Garlits claims if the family had tried to sue Goodyear for the failure(stupid thought at best) Goodyear would have eaten them alive in court. But tire failure was the last word on it.
    But Garlits learned to hate the struts, and he built this deal as a result.



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    Last edited by gn7; 02-01-2011 at 02:31 PM.

  9. #91
    Senior Member stix818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I played with this on a freinds aero simulator.
    David 519 is 100% correct.
    Once your can't the wing, you can induce rotational force to the hull, and it is almost impossible to do with the wing over the boat. Depending on how you imput data for the water, which I found impossible to do. But with the boat on flat ground, the up rights would collapse before you could raise the nose if the wing is directly over the boat. Not so with it cantilevered. It would rotate, and pretty easily if the wing was far enough back.

    Tony, you comment on the struts on a cantilevered deal is right in line with everything Garlits screamed for years. He still to this day says Russel's death was a result of the wing struts. The official word was a tire failure. Garlits claims if the family had tried to sue Goodyear for the failure(stupid thought at best) Goodyear would have eaten them alive in court. But tire failure was the last word on it.
    But Garlits learned to hate the struts, and he built this deal as a result.
    GN, what's considered far enough back? Couple inches (in your simulation)?
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  10. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    I played with this on a freinds aero simulator.
    David 519 is 100% correct. Once your can't the wing, you can induce rotational force to the hull, and it is almost impossible to do with the wing over the boat. Depending on how you imput data for the water, which I found impossible to do. But with the boat on flat ground, the up rights would collapse before you could raise the nose if the wing is directly over the boat. Not so with it cantilevered. It would rotate, and pretty easily if the wing was far enough back.

    Tony, you comment on the struts on a cantilevered deal is right in line with everything Garlits screamed for years. He still to this day says Russel's death was a result of the wing struts. The official word was a tire failure. Garlits claims if the family had tried to sue Goodyear for the failure(stupid thought at best) Goodyear would have eaten them alive in court. But tire failure was the last word on it.
    But Garlits learned to hate the struts, and he built this deal as a result.
    SAY WHAT!!! I don't know who you are, but GN's gonna be PISSED when he finds out you stole his password and posted that phrase!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

  11. #93
    gn7
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    Yeah, we all F up. I actually understood what you were trying to convey with the wheel thing, I just didn't see it that way in my head. But on the sceen, you then see that it is not only rotational, but the whole assembly is. Which includes the wing. Much like you hand on the wrench. In my head, the wing went straight down. But its on a arc, just like everything else. I have some drwaings at the shop we pull off it that make it easier to visualize.



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  12. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by stix818 View Post
    GN, what's considered far enough back? Couple inches (in your simulation)?
    No! See that were Wags and I had a disagreement one time about a crows foot on a torque wrench not effecting the reasdings if the crows foot is 90* to the wrench. Well, I have a crows foot that blows that theory all to hell. Its 4 ft long. Even 90* to the wrench, there is a noticable difference in the readings.

    I wasn't trying to determine the effect of the down force of the wing on the boat other than to see the difference between in the boat and out. I have no idea how much down force you guys are even dealiong with. I wanted to see what the difference was between a wing in the boat, and behind the boat. So the wing in the boat could be loaded to a zillion pounds and have no effect on the position of the hull. But this was with boat on flat ground. I had no way to simulate the properties of it in water, and I still wonder what they are in relation to down force from a wing. but the effect was indenticle as down force on a car directly over the rear axle, and no suspension and tires solid. I had to remove the unknowns, but they would have only collapsed in direct relationship to the down force anyways.

    Then I took the wing and moved it 10FT 5 ft behind the boat. Only to see the extreme of the effect. Not tryinjg to determine the relationship on 100lbs in the boat VS 100lbs 4 inch back. It wasn't the idea. It was, what is the overall effect of canting the wing, period. Much like what is the effect of a crows foot.
    If you what to know if the 2" crows foot has ANY effect on the torque reading, you need to make a 2ft crows foot and see. Maybe even longer. The point was it has NO effect. well, it does.
    And so does canting the wing. By a couple of inches or six inches? It wasn't my intention to try and find out how much, just what the effects of too much were. From the little bit I could see, if the wing was still over the boat, including the plate, it was all pretty much the same. You have to get the wing behind the boat, including the plate. Again, this was based on a flat, ungiving surface, and I have no way to determine the effects the water has a movable or flexable surface.

    One thing we did find though. If Tony is right about the wing angle and the 1* change going from down to up, And I no reason to doubt him, you don't have to rotate the boat very far, and your wing just went from a down force, to neutral, to lift. Because like I said, the wing doesn't go straight down, it rotates on a arc around the pivot of the attachment point in the boat. Imagine the horizantal line is the boat, and the angled line is the wing strut. You can see that the whole thing would rotate around the junction point of the 2 lines.
    I don't know if I have ever seen a boat with the wing far enough back to be considered outside the boat. But there sure as hell are cars with the wing behind the rear axle.



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  13. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by David 519 View Post
    SAY WHAT!!! I don't know who you are, but GN's gonna be PISSED when he finds out you stole his password and posted that phrase!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    Yeah, we all F up. I actually understood what you were trying to convey with the wheel thing, I just didn't see it that way in my head. But on the sceen, you then see that it is not only rotational, but the whole assembly is. Which includes the wing. Much like you hand on the wrench. In my head, the wing went straight down. But its on a arc, just like everything else. I have some drwaings at the shop we pull off it that make it easier to visualize.
    I see a full on dude kiss coming on!
    Quote Originally Posted by hondo jim View Post
    get a life..... mowe some more lawns. pick up some cans, save your ol ladys welfare checks and get your teeth fixed.



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  14. #96
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    Here is a quick my take on Lift. Lift, positive or negative is perpendicular to the ground. Lift is affected by the lifting surface's angle of attack. That is the angle of the surface vs the relative wind. Relative wind in a boat is generally parallel to the water. So 1 degree of up (creating down force) can become 1 degree of down if the boat lifts the nose 2 degrees. This will create lift as opposed to down force. The affect of the lift or down force is straight down through the lifting surface not at the attaching point on the boat. A wing that produces 10 lbs of down force produces the same down force regardless of where the wing is located. What changes is; using the lug wrench analogy, turn the lug wrench perpendicular to the ground (wing directly over the mounts) and apply 10 lbs of down force. The lug nuts won't turn. Now move the lug wrench to a 45* angle and apply the same 10 lbs at a 6" from the nut point. You have more force to twist the lug nut but still only 10lbs of down. add a cheater bar and the same 45* and move to the 3 foot point and apply the same 10 lbs of down. Now the nuts will rotate as the length of the bar increases the leverage and as such the torque applied to the nuts. A laid back wing has this same effect.

    I hope this helps. And if anyone thinks my aerodynamics is off, PM me and I'll explain it to you.
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  15. #97
    Distinguished Member David 519's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboatguru View Post
    I'd really like a full on dude kiss
    Tony, really??
    Quote Originally Posted by gn7 View Post
    ....... David 519 is 100% correct........

    Quote Originally Posted by fuelinmyveins82 View Post
    .....I think people forget that racing is supposed to fun. Losing shouldn't be discouraging it should motivate you work on your pile to make it faster.....

  16. #98
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    Free body diagram, wiki it, solve the equations, it's really not that complicated. Or, find a first year engineering student or a sharp high school student that's had a physics class. You don't need to use an aero software package that you don't understand to give you the answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spike Morelli View Post
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