Performance Boats Forum banner

Wing or non-wing

11K views 103 replies 27 participants last post by  SoldHondaBoughtHondo 
#1 ·
Curious what the benefits are to running a wing on flatbottoms. I come from a strong open-wheel background and know the ins and outs of wings on the oval. Olson has some awesome products and they look great on most boats. Ive noticed many boats showing up wingless through the seasons that had them on before. Help me out and give me an understanding of these things on the water. Pics of equipment setup with these airfoils would be cool too!!
 
#2 ·
From what I've been able to gather over the years is that they serve three purposes. One is the ability to add downforce on the boat and help keep it planted on the water, but from what I've heard thats very moderate. Second and more importantly is its effect on slowing down the side to side movement or chining of the boat at speed, helping to keep the smooth side down, and the shiney side up. Third and most important, they look cool! From best I can tell most of the boats that run them are running 8.00 and quicker. Most 9.00 boats on up don't have or need them. I've been told before the drag they impart can and will slow a boat down, then I've heard people say they didn't see any difference. Hope that helps a little, Todd~:)
 
#11 · (Edited)
So was I:D Didn't mean to sound like I was busting yours. Alittle more wing? Like a little more money in your wallet, or little bigger tits. He needs it as wide as the boat, and cantilever it back another 5 ft. and 2 ft higher, with Ben sitting on it. But then the boat would be outside the 25 oal rule:D

Personally, I think he should give up on planting the ass end, install a cleaver, and learn to 3 point it like the big boys. :)bulb
 
#12 ·
When I built my capsule pro gas flat back in the 90's, I spent a lot of time on the wing and learned a ton. A wing is a very handy tool to use in your boat's setup but it's usefulness is often misunderstood. It is true that they will help hold the tail down and will help keep the boat from 'chine walking'. It is also true that having the wing adjusted improperly can do more harm than good. I once change the adjustment in my wing and slowed almost 5 mph! I also learned that they are more effective standing straight up and will actually lift the nose up if you lay the wing back.

The down side is they are generally not effective under 140 mph. If your boat is slower than that, it may look nice but it will slow you down.
 
#17 ·
When I built my capsule pro gas flat back in the 90's, I spent a lot of time on the wing and learned a ton. A wing is a very handy tool to use in your boat's setup but it's usefulness is often misunderstood. It is true that they will help hold the tail down and will help keep the boat from 'chine walking'. It is also true that having the wing adjusted improperly can do more harm than good. I once change the adjustment in my wing and slowed almost 5 mph! I also learned that they are more effective standing straight up and will actually lift the nose up if you lay the wing back.

The down side is they are generally not effective under 140 mph. If your boat is slower than that, it may look nice but it will slow you down.
Steve, when you set yours up, how much down did you guys run? I'm assuming you based it off the strut?
 
#15 ·
All of the previous posts pretty much tell you everything you need to know. They provide down force and add bling, and they will slow your boat down. You can increase the down force verses the drag by cantilevering it behind the boat like the cat has, but I wouldn't recommend that on a small flat. And like taf171 said, they don't do much below a certai speed unless its big, like the cats, or you put in a lot if attack. Again, don't recommend that either.
If your not drag racing it, its all bling. And bling cool!
 
#22 · (Edited)
I wonder if back in the 80's-90's if anyone put a wing on...say a heavy boat....and actually put "up" in the adjustment to creat less drag since the props back in those days didnt have as much lift as the late style big ear props.....probably not as that would make the boat ride too level and run slow....

I used to believe a wing did nothing until 130-140 as taf171 said...and I also believe Tony is right as this goes along with the big ear props creating more lift sooner at a lesser mph especially in a light boat...just my opinion.
 
#23 ·
Its all in size of the surface area and attack angle plus bonus design features like spill plates.
If they didn't work below 140 mph, Cessnas would never fly. But the wings are big. If you don't mind the drag, a spoiler will creat huge amounts of down force at fairly low speeds. But you'll kill your speed.

Where the hell is Spudpilot when you need him?



 
#26 ·
140MPH???? I knew the race pack in Wiskers was lying to me! I told you Bob it ran on the + side of 140!:D The wing on Wiskers was made to my dimensions using shelf parts from olsen. Wiskers blows the tail upwards of 85mph and starts acting like Tony when he has not had "ALL YOU CAN EAT SUSHI" in a week. The day of the enduro I ran the warm up lap and had little time testing the wing. Not knowing if we had enough in it we added another 2 degrees before the race started. When I came down the back straight away at 90 mph the nose was climbing & the ass was planted tight. It was really amazing. I cantilevered the wing off the transom about a foot and connected the main supports to the transom. And no bling was not a consideration as Duchebag guru told me it was like putting lipstick on a pig...:)coffee
 
#27 ·
Steve, the wing we had on the TAF was deigned to run on a dragster. The manufacturer told us to not run more than a single degree in it. It created so much tail lift that it actually ble the tail as you decelerated. I think Rick Jackson was one of the first to use a dual element wing on Flatzilla and they were the answer to all that drag created by the single element wings we were running back then. Jim Lange has designed a wing on Baushers boat that is a dual element and it doesn't slow his boat down much but I just don't know enough about it to comment on it much. It is huge.[/QUOTE]

The wing should not be used to lift the tail. If it's lifting the tail then something is wrong. How many dragsters are trying to remove down force off the tires? The prop lifts. The wing is supposed to keep the tail planted and stable.
 
#29 ·
Steve, the wing we had on the TAF was deigned to run on a dragster. The manufacturer told us to not run more than a single degree in it. It created so much tail lift that it actually ble the tail as you decelerated. I think Rick Jackson was one of the first to use a dual element wing on Flatzilla and they were the answer to all that drag created by the single element wings we were running back then. Jim Lange has designed a wing on Baushers boat that is a dual element and it doesn't slow his boat down much but I just don't know enough about it to comment on it much. It is huge.
The wing should not be used to lift the tail. If it's lifting the tail then something is wrong. How many dragsters are trying to remove down force off the tires? The prop lifts. The wing is supposed to keep the tail planted and stable.[/QUOTE]

LOL, We were not using it to lift the tail. At 1 degree down it was lifting the tail. That is wing is in the garbage.
 
#33 ·
Wing in the garbage? Mouzers gotta be havin' a stroke about now!:)hand As far as setting the angle is concerned, I've always been curious about that. I guess the newer style wings appear flatter, but the old style Dan Olsons look kinda like a banana when veiwed from the side. How do you determine degree's on a banana shaped wing?
 
#42 ·
No, I'm not going fast enough to need one. If I needed to know bad enough, I would just call Dan Olson. The thread turned more informative than I expected it to, and just wanted to keep it going. I'll survive without the info for now..........I'm just always looking to learn more.
 
#43 ·
Todd, I'll throw you a bone.. Not that I'm doing it right due to the obvious reasons.. The way that I did mine was I bought a zero'ing level and crawled under the boat and zero'd the level to the strut. Then I put a straight piece of aluminum across the wing and set the wing to have a 1/2 a degree in the positive direction.. I know the Vulgar guys do it a little different but our measurements were pretty close to the way they did it.. You just have to be careful when using the digital level because you can set the wing where it's very agressive by the way you flip the level..
 
#44 ·
The easiest is to get a smart level. The way we set ours which is now an Olsen is to first zero it out to the boat. Which just like Vinnie does we zero it to the BASE of the strut not the angle of the strut. It really doesn't matter if the boat is tilted down or up as long as you don't change it when you go to set the wing. First see what that angle is and then go to the wing. We uses a piece of flat bar and we lay it from the front to the base of the wicker bill and we put the smart level on top of that. Olsen says the wicker bill adds 2 degrees but we still put 1 degree in our wing in the Blinger. So if your strut angle measurement was 3.5 degrees, your wing should be 4.5 degrees up top, not -4.5 degrees;). Liquid Dan or Loporchio may have done it differently but we all get to the same result. Make sure you check both edges of the wing just inside the spill plates.
 
#46 ·
The easiest is to get a smart level. The way we set ours which is now an Olsen is to first zero it out to the boat. Which just like Vinnie does we zero it to the BASE of the strut not the angle of the strut. It really doesn't matter if the boat is tilted down or up as long as you don't change it when you go to set the wing. First see what that angle is and then go to the wing. We uses a piece of flat bar and we lay it from the front to the base of the wicker bill and we put the smart level on top of that. Olsen says the wicker bill adds 2 degrees but we still put 1 degree in our wing in the Blinger. So if your strut angle measurement was 3.5 degrees, your wing should be 4.5 degrees up top, not -4.5 degrees;). Liquid Dan or Loporchio may have done it differently but we all get to the same result. Make sure you check both edges of the wing just inside the spill plates.
Exactly how the Vulgar brothers do it.. Base of the wicker bill, interesting..
 
#45 ·
Thank you guys for sharing valuable information with us, I really appreciate it. I know guys can be pretty tight lipped when it comes to sharing setup info, it's always nice to see people with more knowledge sharing it with others. Thank you. For what it's worth, I bought a nice digital level with a lazer built in at Sears about a year ago on sale for 30 bucks. I don't know if it has a zeroing feature though, I'll have to look, Todd~
 
#47 ·
Pretty sure that's the same one I have and if so it does. Paid about the same price!! Be careful with how you flip it when going from the upside down position to the top of the wing.. It can be a difference of at least 4*s..
 
#52 · (Edited)
With boats its a little bit harder to see and get document-able results because of being on 'water'...

When I use to road race we used a wing on a highly modified all fiberglass Porsche 916 with about 48" of rubber on the ground. We tried to make it work for a long time with differing bad results. We finally found the 'sweet spot' with the use of infrared imaging. By imaging the heat signatures in all the tires after runs we could really "SEE" the down forces applied in direct relation to adjustments from the wing only.

After that we moved the entire wing higher to get into 'clean-air' where it worked exponentially better. When we lowered it below the cockpit canopy level it took away all applied forces because there was no air flow to properly associate to downforce.

Many of the boats I see with wings have them right at or below the canopy or blower hat. That's typically going to make for very bad air-flow and make your wing nearly insignificant at the lower speeds you speak of. Get the wing higher in the air to get a clean laminar flow over it and you'll see big changes in its abilities.

Its too bad they dont make "a camera" that see's air movement like a wind tunnel to see where your point of clean air is.... more future technology to develop!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top