In reading about the F-29 going with the 1,350 I was wondering what are the trade offs between speed, original purchase price of engines, weight and fuel consumption? This would make a great article if I could get a manufacturer reading this involved with apples to apples. Does anyone have any opinions on this concept? Certainly a set of twins offers a greater sense of security if boating in large bodies of water or out in open water.
King Creole
I would think two engines with half the HP would be 200% more reliable on the engine and drive.
The more you step up HP the costs go up like a rocket.
The more you step up HP the costs go up like a rocket.
It would be great to see a side-by-side test of this. Here are few things I have noted about singles vs. twins with the same combined horsepower.
Fuel economy drops by about 30% with twins due to the extra drag from the drive, and the extra weight.
Cost is often about the same. It seems Mercruiser, Volvo, and others almost price by the horsepower. Now a Merc 1350 is probably a different story, since that pricing is stratospheric. If you price two small blocks with one big block of equal power, they come out about the same.
Weight is an issue. Twins definitely increase the weight. This could change some in the future with the new all aluminum GM small blocks.
Twins are up to twice the maintenance, and is usually twice as much to go wrong. The lower horsepower engines generally have somewhat less expensive parts though, and sometime less maintenance is required. Twins are usually less highly stressed, so they may last longer.
Engine access for maintenance can be a pain with twins, since they are usually put right next to each other with very little clearance.
Top speed is generally lower with twins vs. a single with the same combined power. Again, more weight and drag play a factor.
If you do much boating out in the ocean or Great Lakes, twins are pretty much a must. The ocean doesn't take prisoners. Even just leaving the harbor is a risk in a single. I've had engines die right in the harbor. If the engine dies right outside the breakwater, the boat is going to get slammed on the breakwater rocks by wind and swells, or get thrown onto the beach. Trying to pay out 300 feet of anchor line is pretty much impossible that close to shore or breakwater.
If you go any distance from the harbor, help can take a long time, and it may be too late to save the boat from grounding or being swamped. If you cross shipping lanes, and your one engine dies, you can be in trouble. The ships may not see you, or may not be able to turn in time. If you run along the shore, and your one engine dies, your boat can be on shore in a matter of minutes. I had to shut the engine in a single engine boat one time off the SoCal coast, and with the wind and waves pushing the boat, my GPS said I was going 4 knots backwards!
I saw a story on these forums about a guy in a Schiada racing along the SoCal coast in the Rum Run. He blew his engine. He threw out two anchors, but they wouldn't hold because the swell was too big. He radioed race support, but it was going to take at least 15-20 minutes to get there. It was clear the boat would be history by that time. He was getting ready to abandon ship using his raft since the boat was approaching the breakers, when another competitor came by, and dragged him further from shore so there would be time for support boat to get there. The competitor then went on his way. Talk about sportsmanship! You can see the thread here http://www.performanceboats.com/jet-boats/92680-72-tahitian-22-jet-boat.html
Michael
Fuel economy drops by about 30% with twins due to the extra drag from the drive, and the extra weight.
Cost is often about the same. It seems Mercruiser, Volvo, and others almost price by the horsepower. Now a Merc 1350 is probably a different story, since that pricing is stratospheric. If you price two small blocks with one big block of equal power, they come out about the same.
Weight is an issue. Twins definitely increase the weight. This could change some in the future with the new all aluminum GM small blocks.
Twins are up to twice the maintenance, and is usually twice as much to go wrong. The lower horsepower engines generally have somewhat less expensive parts though, and sometime less maintenance is required. Twins are usually less highly stressed, so they may last longer.
Engine access for maintenance can be a pain with twins, since they are usually put right next to each other with very little clearance.
Top speed is generally lower with twins vs. a single with the same combined power. Again, more weight and drag play a factor.
If you do much boating out in the ocean or Great Lakes, twins are pretty much a must. The ocean doesn't take prisoners. Even just leaving the harbor is a risk in a single. I've had engines die right in the harbor. If the engine dies right outside the breakwater, the boat is going to get slammed on the breakwater rocks by wind and swells, or get thrown onto the beach. Trying to pay out 300 feet of anchor line is pretty much impossible that close to shore or breakwater.
If you go any distance from the harbor, help can take a long time, and it may be too late to save the boat from grounding or being swamped. If you cross shipping lanes, and your one engine dies, you can be in trouble. The ships may not see you, or may not be able to turn in time. If you run along the shore, and your one engine dies, your boat can be on shore in a matter of minutes. I had to shut the engine in a single engine boat one time off the SoCal coast, and with the wind and waves pushing the boat, my GPS said I was going 4 knots backwards!
I saw a story on these forums about a guy in a Schiada racing along the SoCal coast in the Rum Run. He blew his engine. He threw out two anchors, but they wouldn't hold because the swell was too big. He radioed race support, but it was going to take at least 15-20 minutes to get there. It was clear the boat would be history by that time. He was getting ready to abandon ship using his raft since the boat was approaching the breakers, when another competitor came by, and dragged him further from shore so there would be time for support boat to get there. The competitor then went on his way. Talk about sportsmanship! You can see the thread here http://www.performanceboats.com/jet-boats/92680-72-tahitian-22-jet-boat.html
Michael
I think one of the biggest factors would be purpose of the boat and where it would be used and what percentage of the time. The power to weight ratio would be improved by a big single and if used on the lake breaking a drive or other part would hopefully be easier to get a tow;however, if used in the ocean or large lake you might be willing to sacrifice a little speed to gain extra reliability.
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I have been wanting to get back in the 27-35 foot class again. I am going single. There are advantages of two but it also cost twice as much. A single 7-800 hp will do for me in a nice Cat.
Michael said it all and said it very well.
Howard has the dependability of a turbine and ASD on his side. Personally I liked his 40' with twins better than the 46.
LT
Howard has the dependability of a turbine and ASD on his side. Personally I liked his 40' with twins better than the 46.
LT
Comment:
Interesting topic the determinative factor IMO is the length of the boat....I would say anything over 30-32 feet is twin engine territory.
Yeah there are a few boats which qualify as exceptions but generally speaking twins are the dominate choice when going with bigger boats.
Singles reach a plateau real quick as to how much HP/Engine you can put in them and still have a great overall boat. They are also harder to drive than twins at WOT or the docks.
Twins may have more up keep and hardware issues but if you have factory power they will have a long service life if you maintain them regularly i.e...oil, filters and impellers. For example a set of HP525 motors are far more preferable to me than one 1000HP version of a BBC.
In addition, having one high HP motor means they really likes high octane gas to run right. Manufacturers now offer pump gas motors such as the QC4V 1350 motor but I would think it still likes high octane better than straight pump gas.
Lastly, if you boat in the ocean twins is the only way to go period.... from center console boats to cuddy cabin cruisers. I need to have two motors when I'm in the ocean. If you do have a single a good back up is always cheap insurance. I would have a small outboard on a drop down kicker plate for back up if my boat was a single offshore boat.
This F-29 with a single is a good overall choice but I think if you crunch the numbers you could get two HP525's [or greater factory power] and have a ton of cash left over when you weigh it against the cost of a 1350 with a M-8 drive. It comes down to what the vision is for the owner of the boat... what ever they prefer is the right choice.
KAP
Interesting topic the determinative factor IMO is the length of the boat....I would say anything over 30-32 feet is twin engine territory.
Yeah there are a few boats which qualify as exceptions but generally speaking twins are the dominate choice when going with bigger boats.
Singles reach a plateau real quick as to how much HP/Engine you can put in them and still have a great overall boat. They are also harder to drive than twins at WOT or the docks.
Twins may have more up keep and hardware issues but if you have factory power they will have a long service life if you maintain them regularly i.e...oil, filters and impellers. For example a set of HP525 motors are far more preferable to me than one 1000HP version of a BBC.
In addition, having one high HP motor means they really likes high octane gas to run right. Manufacturers now offer pump gas motors such as the QC4V 1350 motor but I would think it still likes high octane better than straight pump gas.
Lastly, if you boat in the ocean twins is the only way to go period.... from center console boats to cuddy cabin cruisers. I need to have two motors when I'm in the ocean. If you do have a single a good back up is always cheap insurance. I would have a small outboard on a drop down kicker plate for back up if my boat was a single offshore boat.
This F-29 with a single is a good overall choice but I think if you crunch the numbers you could get two HP525's [or greater factory power] and have a ton of cash left over when you weigh it against the cost of a 1350 with a M-8 drive. It comes down to what the vision is for the owner of the boat... what ever they prefer is the right choice.
KAP
Rayzor
I consider myself blessed to have spent a good bit of time in both of Howard's Skaters.
He invited us (us being my wife and me - he likes her much better) out in 95 after many hours on the phone. He took us for a 2 hour sight seeing tour of San Francisco bay and only dropped under 120 to put on a fire show at Pier 39. I will never forget the 140 pass from the ocean side under the Golden Gate.
He had the 46 in the shop but it was a couple of years before he got it worked out.
I had two more days in the 40 and have had 4 days in the 46 including a trip up the river.
Anyway
I am not sure my preference for the 40 is real or imaginary. The 40 was gone by the time I got a ride in the 46 so I do not have a back to back opinion. The 40 was my first ride in anything like it and it was an amazing boat. It ran perfectly smooth no matter the speed. No hop anywhere and would turn donuts inside it's own wake in ever tightening circles until your ribs hurt with no sign of body lean. The 46 just feels looser to me. May just be me but then it is my opinion.
Both boats are amazing.
The opinion that counts came from Howard - he said he would never go back to a twin.
LT
I consider myself blessed to have spent a good bit of time in both of Howard's Skaters.
He invited us (us being my wife and me - he likes her much better) out in 95 after many hours on the phone. He took us for a 2 hour sight seeing tour of San Francisco bay and only dropped under 120 to put on a fire show at Pier 39. I will never forget the 140 pass from the ocean side under the Golden Gate.
He had the 46 in the shop but it was a couple of years before he got it worked out.
I had two more days in the 40 and have had 4 days in the 46 including a trip up the river.
Anyway
I am not sure my preference for the 40 is real or imaginary. The 40 was gone by the time I got a ride in the 46 so I do not have a back to back opinion. The 40 was my first ride in anything like it and it was an amazing boat. It ran perfectly smooth no matter the speed. No hop anywhere and would turn donuts inside it's own wake in ever tightening circles until your ribs hurt with no sign of body lean. The 46 just feels looser to me. May just be me but then it is my opinion.
Both boats are amazing.
The opinion that counts came from Howard - he said he would never go back to a twin.
LT
With SeaTow service [ have it in my policy] nowadays , a single engined boat is the cost effective way.However, boating in the ocean is a different story.Weather can change quickly, bringing a question. How long before SeaTow reaches you? With a mechanical failure of engine /drive, a twin will give you a chance to limp home. Following sea can swamp a boat so you have to rig a sea anchor keeping the bow into the wind.Twins are a breeze to dock with just using shifters too so my vote is for twins
)THumbsUp. My friend has a 33' with a single ZZ572 he crossing the Strait [ 26 mile trip] on weekends , yet he never had to call SeaTow [ lucky so far]. I hit a submerged log and limped home on my port engine. The external ram helped to keep the broken leg from pulling out ,not letting water coming in through the gimble bearing hole.It would have been a task to plug the hole from inside .
)THumbsUp. My friend has a 33' with a single ZZ572 he crossing the Strait [ 26 mile trip] on weekends , yet he never had to call SeaTow [ lucky so far]. I hit a submerged log and limped home on my port engine. The external ram helped to keep the broken leg from pulling out ,not letting water coming in through the gimble bearing hole.It would have been a task to plug the hole from inside .
I think you really need side by side comps.
1. One huge HP single engine package
2. Twins with good HP.
3. Cost for each package
4. Performance data
5. Reliability
6. Resale (we always sell)
1. One huge HP single engine package
2. Twins with good HP.
3. Cost for each package
4. Performance data
5. Reliability
6. Resale (we always sell)
I currently own a boat with twins. They say once you go twins you'll never go back and I believe it.
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