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Zinc zddp oil additive question

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additive oil question zddp zinc
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19K views 86 replies 18 participants last post by  gn7  
#1 · (Edited)
I'm running valvoline vr1 20/50 in my 454 BBC. I know it has high levels of zinc cause it is considered a racing oil. My question is even though it has zinc in it already do you guys put an additive on top of it? Something like the comp cams or Lucas oil zinc additives. Is there such thing as too much zinc?

I know not everyone is running valvoline vr1 but what is your guys opinion on this?
 
#3 ·
Yes, it is possible to have to much ZDDP for everyday use.
CompCams break in is fine for break in, but sucks for everyday use. It just ends up in the bottom of the pan. It contains waaaay too much MOS[SUB]2[/SUB] which is not the best thing to have in your engine.

If your running straight or 20/50 VR1, I would not add anything. Any 10/30 conventional oil, including VR1, maybe a bottle of ZDDPlus to a 10-14 quart pan.



 
#5 ·
I used the same oil in my old motor and added extra zinc just to break the motor in, one bottle for each 4 quarts of oil (2bottles) like recommended .... here's what the bottom of the pan looked like .... The "sludge" looking stuff is the zinc additive, the "pieces" are bearing material ..... this was after less than 1 hour of run time.... personally, I won't use extra zinc additive again :no:
 

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#8 · (Edited)
Franger, ever see Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs, Torco SR1 or 5, Pennzoil GT Racing oils? Where any of them black?

You cannot see ZDDP, neither the zink or the phos. There is way to little of both, and neither are black.

You used an break in additive, used WAAAAY too much, and it was in a roller cam motor that has no need of any "break in" additive. The black is MOS[SUP]2[/SUP] which has no business being in any engine for more than 30 minutes tops.

DO not blame the ZDDP/zink, blame the additive you used. They are not all the same, and ZDDP additives and BREAK IN additives are two different animals
GOOD ZDDP additives are just that, and they do not contain MOS[SUP]2[/SUP] or as I refer to it, BLACK DEATH
 
#6 ·
The zinc addative thing is overthought somewhat. A little knowledge thing....
Racing oils are still ok. Some better than others. If you are worried about a "break in" oil... buy Joe Gibbs break in oil, or another brand. It is formulated for a specific job. Not putting a band aid (addative) on a product (regular oil)
Personally I just run VR1 20W50, or Lucas racing 20W50.
Wags
 
#7 · (Edited)
wagspe208 said:
The zinc addative thing is overthought somewhat. A little knowledge thing....
Racing oils are still ok. Some better than others.
Personally I just run VR1 20W50, or Lucas racing 20W50.
Wags
Click to expand...
I have 3 cases of Terrible Herbst Racing oil. How much would you like to buy? It says RACING OIL right on the label. Not a joke, I have it and you if would like to buy some, its yours. The words RACING oil on the label doesn't mean a fucking thing. It never did. There are NON racing oils out there that will crush MOST so called RACING oils. Badly! So, which would be the real RACING oil, and which is the FAUX RACING oil in that case?


Some are better than others? Thats true. Look at the Terrible Herbst Racing Oil. Do you consider the 2 you listed in the BETTER category, or the OTHERS department?
Its a little easier to "pick" an oil when your drag racing with a roller cam. An aggressive flat tappet with springs to support it a tad harder on the oil than ANY roller cam. Ask the roundy round boys. Ask me about wrist pins and pushrod ends. Ask the GN44 boat after smoking 4 pushrods at Burley.
Yeah, the whole ZDDP thing is overblown.
IF YOU RUN A ROLLER CAM 8 SECONDS AT A TIME!



 
#9 ·
I broke my engine in on rotello 20/50 with an additive.It is a solid flat tappet with a good sized cam after about 45 mins run time I'am ready to change oil what are good oils for this app. and with or without additives any thoughts?
 
#18 ·
Since my ignorance has shown... please inform me... what should I be looking at. My rollers live, my bearings look great (but that doesn't matter), my cylinders aren't scuffed, my rings look fine.
Or should I put Wesson oil in and see where my failures are.
Wags
 
#30 · (Edited)
Maybe one of the petro geniuses can explain why Valvoline felt the need to make this when their VR1 was so great. And why they only needed to make it for less than a year.


Image


Where is this stuff now, and why was it EVER necessary to sell it to begin with. Was this BETTER stuff. The price sure as hell said it was. Why? What made it better? What made this stuff Illegal, and VR1 not? How many oil companies do you know and can name that sell or EVER sold TWO conventional RACING oils of the same viscosity, at the same time? Any?
Come geniuses. There must have been a reason why Valvoline did this. You must know why?



 
#31 ·
gn7 said:
Maybe one of the petro geniuses can explain why Valvoline felt the need to make this when their VR1 was so great. And why they only needed to make it for less than a year.


Image


Where is this stuff now, and why was it EVER necessary to sell it to begin with. Was this BETTER stuff. The price sure as hell said it was. Why? What made it better? What made this stuff Illegal, and VR1 not? How many oil companies do you know and can name that sell or EVER sold TWO conventional RACING oils of the same viscosity, at the same time? Any?
Come geniuses. There must have been a reason why Valvoline did this. You must know why?
Click to expand...
I berlieve it was a little known concept called marketing. This came out around the time of the "no zddp" era.
Wags

Oh, BTW.. from now on I'm running wesson oil. Hell, it's just an 8 second bracket boat that runs 6's once a a year, running 3 years with only bearings. (because the pan was off to check bearings and I felt guilty)
What parts should I be looking at to judge an oil?
 
#32 ·
And while on the subject.....not everyone NEEDS a "real racing oil". A flat tappet river runner probably doesn't. A hyd. roller river runner probably doesn't. A mild bracket roller BB probably doesn't. A fueler does. A real BA engine does.
Wags
 
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#33 ·
Wags, I thought that oil was the one that was said to gain 50hp... Marketing ploy..I wouldn't know since I was running VR1 and it works. As Gn7 stated he never ran it in his GN he stopped when "HE" built the boat...... You have to forgive him sometimes... Well all the time... He spent way too much time on the bench at recess when he was young. Now all he does is WATCH his boat go around in circles:angry: Then tries to tell the world VR1 isn't good enough for his Bad ass GN engine lol:shhh:
 
#34 · (Edited)
3 pages and no one brings up viscosities and shear rates on oil? Regardless of moly content, running a lower grade viscosity means a lower shear rate (the oil's ability to maintain film thickness/resistence to flow) between say the journal surface and bearing surface. You can pack in the additive, but if your oil doesn't have enough shear strength to counter the resulting force generated by a combustion event, then you're touching metal to metal and things get costly quick. Most NA motors have a cylinder pressure between 2 and 3.5 MPa so an oil of 30 weight or better @ 280F will protect for those forces. Once you get into blown applications, a minimum of 15W40 (or straight 40) should be used to protect against cylinder pressures in excess of 3.5MPa. Again, this is in relation to engine bearings. Cam lobe to lifter face forces are considerably less so as long as you protect for your bearings with a suitable viscosity, you'll be fine at the cam to lifter interface. The use of moly and ZDDP is a secondary, neccesary lubricant that bonds to the metal's coating/surface to aid in reducing friction and subsiquently galling or scoring. That sentence may sound like it's right out of an oil commercial, but it's the truth. Metals and their coatings are micro-porous and will suck this shit up like a sponge.

A little information that many don't pay attention to would be what the numbers even mean in say 20W/50. 20W stands for the winter viscosity grade of 20 and the 50 is for the summer viscosity grade. I assume that the majority of boaters on this site run their boats in the summer months say, above 60 degrees F, so it's okay to run either a multigrade or straight grade oil as long as you pay attention to the final digits in the oil classification. With the improvements in oil technology these days to GF5 in late 2010 and the use of coatings and rollers, ZDDP and moly are being eliminated from off-the-shelf oils. Stick with an oil that has a known moly or ZDDP content in it and you'll be fine after an initial break-in. This goes for flat tappet and roller motors!
 
#36 ·
GN7... while I really think you know a lot, and have a lot of experinece, and respect your opinions.........you sometimes come off like a condescending ass.
Laugh...I am.
Wags

So, what is the flavor of the day? Brad Penn? Lucas racing? Redline? Torco? That purple stuff? Etc. No, what do YOU run in your boat? And if someone runs something other than what you run... will their engine fail?
And where on earth did you get the idea I said a high spring pressure flat tappet cam shoud run 10w30. I simply said river runner. Nothing about spring pressures, nothing about lifter type, etc.
And as far as still thinking... no I gave up half way through your post. You were basically beating your chest trying to impress us on how much you knew. I wasn't impressed that time.
 
#38 ·
First Wags, I have NO problem with VR1 20/50, or any of the straight weights. Its pretty decent oil. My point was, I DID have a problem with it, and still have a problem with the company. They are total assholes. Virtually every oil company on the planet will release data on their oils. Mobil is by far the best about it. By far the best about answering questions. Valvoline is by far the most tight lipped.
Why did they sell NSL, and what made it illegal WHILE THEY SOLD IT? Its an easy question that they flatly refused to answer. I know why it was illegal. I also know that at EXACTLY the same time they sold NSL, they were selling VR1 in every single Pep Boys and Trak Auto in the country LEGALLY, HOW?
All of the oils you listed are fine oils. I don't run any of them now, but I ran them all at one time or another AFTER I gave up in VR1. Even ran Valvoline NSL once. No trouble with any of them. Of the bunch, I like the Torco the best, the Royal Purple BY FAR the least. My biggest complaint with the RP is that it has way too much moly in it, it a little hard on plain bearings in my opinion, moly is horrible for combustion and will lead to detonation in a heart beat if it gets into the combustion chamber. Its not worth the problems. Like Brad Penn, specially if I was running alky. Aside form Torco straight weight, I cannot think of another oil I would run besides Brad Penn. Like I said, used them all in my search, and had no problems with any of them except RP.
The oil I use now I use not because I think its the best. I like Torco SR5 the best. But I can get the oil I run at any Wally World, Pep Boys, Trak Auto, any where. Same with the v-drive oil(which is Quicksilver Performance).

The idea that a TFH or blown alky flat needs a GOOD oil but not a river racer is not really true. Nascar boys only make 750-800 and need the best oil money can buy. F1? We won't even go there!!! Its not ALL about power. RPM, time, and power all play into it. I'd rather take my chances with a blown gas flat on 10/30 Pep Boys oil than a river racer running a .650 lift flat tappet spinning 8500 with a 427 for 2 miles.

You're right Wags, I am a popous ass. Its taken years to perfect, and I have no intention if given up on it now.
If I was looking for friends, I'd have a face book page.;)
 
#42 · (Edited)
Define "high"
Is that like moon high, or just bunny hill high. Does HIGH have a definition when disgussing ZDDP? Is the MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE BY LAW consider high. I guess maybe the MAX is HIGH compared to everything else on the self, but still within the law, regardless how insanely low the law might be. If your at the MAX, then it qualifies as high.
NSL must have surpassed some LAW to be deemed ILLEGAL! Just a guess.
 
#41 ·
At this time, and yet AGAIN I'll remind those that KEEP FORGETTING...debating is fine however, the use of NAME CALLING etc is not going to fly > no matter what oil you use!
SO, KNOCK IT THE FOCK OFF!!!
 
#52 ·
I have been testing Lucas Oil (Marine Products) for performance boats for the last 5 months. Off and on for 20 years I tested oils for hot boat magazine. I have gained a great deal information on oils and what different additives (Add Pack) as it is called, does to specific engine parts. Example: Remove some of the detergent from the oil and ring tension changes. This may cause an increase power but may shorten ring life!
I plan to write an in dept article for performance boats magazine on the results of Lucas Oils.
Lucas Oil has approached me to be a master distributor for the Marine line of products. I have not signed on to do so as of yet because my testing is not completed.

JW
 
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#53 ·
One of the 'tricks" of being able to make a definite purpose oil and side step many of the EPA restrictions is to label it something else. I use to laugh at the idea of a "marine oil". I don't laugh any more. What Lucas is allowed to do to an oil by calling it a "marine oil" is huge.
The word "RACING" is not considered a deterant for Joe Mechanic not to use the oil in his street car. You can call it a RACING oil all you want. If its sold over the counter at Pep Boys, its not what Torco Racing, RP Racing, Lucas Racing, or any of the other RACING oils are.
I haven't ran a AUTOMOTIVE oil in over 2 years. I have no plans to go back any time soon.

Jim, I have no doubt that both the conventional and semi synthetic Lucas Marine oils are exceptionaly good oils.
 
#58 · (Edited)
Only Dominator Racing. It was free and I liked it. Its not sitting on a shelf anywhere, not even Napa stores that stock Amsoil. That pesky law again. So I have never ran it again.
I am no different than most people. I don't like having to order on line, or get oil from some specialty supplier like a speed shop. I understand that cranks and rods aren't at Wally World, but oil is everywhere. You shouldn't have to special purchase something that is on shelfs in millions of retail stores. If Amsoil Dominator was at the corner store, it would be on the top of my list. I would run almost any of the REAL racing oils except Royal Purple XPR. But they aren't, so I don't run any of them.
In fact Rick, I don't run a racing oil, but I will put it up against any conventional oil made by anybody and most synthetic racing oils.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Shaun said:
Has anybody brought up on these forums the new mobile 1 "racing" oil. I got a email about it a month or so back and it looked like mobile 1 created a new "racing" oil. http://www.mobil1racing.com/Oils.aspx

I haven't read too much on it yet but i'm about due for a oil change, mobile 1 15w-50 is what i'm running now.
Click to expand...
It isn't new. Its been around for more than a little while. But direct from Mobil as a "club" member its only available on pallet, or 55 gallon drums. You can get it on line, but it will run you close to 20.00 a qt delievered to your door. \
The ZDDP is only PART of the story with that oil. There is WAAAAAAAY more to it than that.

Now!!! There is a next best alternative, and its in every Pep Boys and Trak Auto and Wally World you've ever been to. MMMMMMmmmmmm:shhh:



 
#67 ·
Where does your oil fall on that list? If that was the BEST Mobil could produce, think they would have bothered producing anything else? OR, is it the best they could produce under the guidelines they are forced to follow for an "off the shelf" oil. This is the VERY reason I laugh at the idea that VR1 is a racing oil By what definition? Some how Valvoline can produce a TRUE RACING oil, (another members words not mine) and still meet some bullshit API certification entitling them to the API donut on the label.
There are oils on the shelf that do not have that label, are not API certified, have a rating of SG, (way back there in time) and will kick every other oil on the shelf to the curb. You simly have to THINK, and amybe outside the box and in a way the EPA wished you wouldn't.
Budweiser said:
Bob, you've been eluding to your choice of oil, but no straight answer yet.

Your opinion is valued, cough it up!

What is the "next best alternative" in your opinion?

Guessing the Quicksilver/Mercury stuff.
Click to expand...
If I was runnig a synthetic, it would be on the top of my list with Lucas Marine Conventional. Probably put the Lucas above it. Certainly the Lucas Semi Syn Marine. But no, I am not running either of those. But I would if you gave it to me.
 
#66 ·
ok, I DIDNT READ THE WHOLE THREAD, I SKIMMED THROUGH IT, BUT I WAS WONDERING, I USE CATSROL, ALWAYS HAVE I LIKE IT, NO OTHER REASON, THE ZDDP FROM WHAT IV HEARD IS SOMETHING THAT YOU SHOULD ADD TO EVERY OIL CHANGE IF YOUR MOTOR IS A NON-ROLLER, PRE 1990, I JUST STARTED ADDING IT TO MY MUSTANG, 351C, I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHICH ZDDP DO YOU GUYS USE IF YOU DO USE IT? THEY HAVE A ZDDP PLUS AND A ZDDP MAX FROM WHAT I CAN TELL, NOT SURE WHAT THE HELL THE DIFFERENCE IS BUT I JUST STARTED USEING THE ZDDP PLUS, ONE BOTTLE TO MY OIL CHANGE (1-ZDDP BOTTLE TO 5 QUARTS OF OIL) MY MOTOR IS NOT A RACING MOTOR, BUT IT IS A FLAT TAPPET CAM WITH THE 351C CANTED VALVE DESIGN WHICH WAS HARD ON THE VALVE TRANE ANYWAYS. SO JUST TO CLARIFY IS IT GOOD TO ADD OR NOT? I WOULD THINK IT IS BUT IM NO EXPERT, THATS WHY I WAS TRYING TO BUILD A ROLLER 454 INSTEAD OF A FLAT TAPPET, I DONT WANT ISSUES WITH ADDING THAT SHIT AT EVERY OIL CHANGE, I UNDERSTOOD THAT IT IS MAINLY ADDED TO PREVENT THE CAM FROM GOING FLAT......
 
#72 ·
The restrictions only applies to oils for use in street driven automobiles. Not boats, not motorcycles. So what Mercury and Lucas are allowed to do to a "marine" oil is not effected by the bullshit. "TRUE" real honest to God racing oils don't have to follow any restrictions either. But then, they can't have the little API donut, or sell it in a retail store for general use. If you buy a "RACING" oil in a retail store, and it has the little donut on the bottle, somebody somewhere is dictating to them. The "RACING" means NOTHING, the little donut is KING.



 
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#74 ·
gn7 said:
The restrictions only applies to oils for use in street driven automobiles. Not boats, not motorcycles. So what Mercury and Lucas are allowed to do to a "marine" oil is not effected by the bullshit. "TRUE" real honest to God racing oils don't have to follow any restrictions either. But then, they can't have the little API donut, or sell it in a retail store for general use. If you buy a "RACING" oil in a retail store, and it has the little donut on the bottle, somebody somewhere is dictating to them. The "RACING" means NOTHING, the little donut is KING.
Click to expand...
Not bashing Mobil 1 since I only run delvac in my Duramax But..... I don't like that they say "Nominal" for the amounts of Zinc, I don't like the word nominal with anything. I know the RACING part of VR1 absolutley kills you. But it's got more zddp than you really need and it's cheap and I've Been testing it for over 25yrs with zero problems...My current test engine is going on 20 seasons with a rather "Large" solid flat tappet cam and my lifters are spinning like tops.....STILL...Not to mention since "WE" started this debate yrs ago I've put atleast 150 hrs on it and it's still going strong.....So really YOUR experience with VR1 is a big 0 compared to mine..... I realize you "blued" some parts and blame the oil but Bob.....REALLY? Why is it with you it's ALWAYS somethings fault other than your own? All your talk of zinc, Flat tappet Cams, Milodon oil pans, I never have experienced ANY of the problems you speak of EVER.
I mean really with my flat tappet cam, Milodon Pan, 60wt VR1 Racing oil if ANYONE should have oil issues I should "according to you" And Up to this point I don't so.... Is it luck? Am I lying? Is it my bad ass oil pump? I can't wait to see the bearings.....Don't worry I'll show them to you! lol
 
#77 · (Edited)
Shaun, there are worse things than 50 psi at 5000. We finish almost every race around 50-55 at 7000. Its pretty much the same thing at 5000. We aren't alone. Its pretty standard. Even the dry sump guys aren't doing all that much better. Never seen anything that scared me into thinking I need to fix it. THAT WOULD SHOW UP ON THE BEARINGS!

All the oil pressure in the world won't help where I have witnessed undo heat and wear. Pressure doen't help vlave stems, pushrods tips, lifter bodies, wrist pins and bores. Pressure won't even help with piston scuffing. Pressure is strictly a bearing issue. Almost ANYTHING that will maintain pressure will work. I have NEVER once chose an oil soley because my bearings looked good. Never.



 
S
#78 ·
gn7 said:
Shaun, there are worse things than 50 psi at 5000. We finish almost every race around 50-55 at 7000. Its pretty much the same thing at 5000. We aren't alone. Its pretty standard. Even the dry sump guys aren't doing all that much better. Never seen anything that scared me into thinking I need to fix it. THAT WOULD SHOW UP ON THE BEARINGS!
Click to expand...
While it's out i'm going to take a look at the bearings too. Whats bothering me is that I didn't have this issue with my last motor, so i'm curious why i'm having it with this one!
 
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